Like who? John Piper? Michael Horton?
Your record keeping is totally unnecessary for me
People sitting in the pew next to me, for example.
I donāt believe Iāve hard Michael Horton imply that only the lives of the elect are meaningful.
I donāt know what Piper says. I gave up on him a long time ago.
1 Like
Okā¦ I donāt know where you went to church but Iāve never heard anyone say that non-believers lives are meaninglessā¦ strictly speaking even the goats get some measure of common grace.
Thought-provoking article. Thanks for the link.
I have a problem with the authorās distinction between purpose and meaning. Contrary to what he claims, purpose also requires intentionality. For example, Gen 1:26 (Let us make humanity in our image ā¦) is a statement of telos, of purpose. Surely Godās purpose for creating humanity had a reason (intended outcome) behind it.
I also take exception with his characterization of existentialism as atheistic. Has he never heard of Kierkegaard or Pascal (a proto-existentialist)? Sartre and Camus were latecomers, but if I had to choose between them, give me Camus every time.
Agree.
Itās an error to equate evangelical theology with biblical theology. The latter is an academic subject (along the lines of systematic theology) that studies the theology of individual books of the Bible, traces particular themes through the Bible, or describes the overarching narratives of the biblical text. That sort of biblical theology isnāt confined to evangelical seminaries or theologians.
Agree.
Yes and no. Humans are definitely hard-wired by evolution to find patterns and connections between events. Why did that happen? Is there a larger reason behind it? So I might hear my screen door bang and go to investigate. My assumption would be the wind blew it open (the default is always natural cause-effect). If the wind wasnāt blowing, my mind wouldnāt immediately jump to a supernatural cause. Iād close the door and go about my business. But if I went to the door in that same circumstance and happened to see a child about to wander into the street, I might be inclined to find a supernatural āwhyā behind what might be a coincidence. Thatās part of the reason behind the appearance of animism and spiritism long before āreligionā appeared on the scene.
Itās a common trope in Christian apologetics. From the article that @klw linked above:
If God does not exist, it has been argued, then life can have no ultimate meaning. Historically, the argument has gone along these lines: if humans are here only because of bio-chemical circumstance, then humans are accidents (oops!). We werenāt meant to be here. The universe did not require us, and it does not have rules for us, or a plan for us. The universe doesnāt even care about us. We are merely thrust into the machine of life and struggle to stay alive as long as we can. But eventually we die. And that is all.
2 Likes
You donāt hear much about the OT mandate for a Year of Jubilee (which was never practiced, and the sabbatical year maybe only once, let alone seven sabbaticals). The Jubilee year would have served as a once per generation economic reset in the principally agrarian economy, compensating for poor business acumen, physical disability, laziness, natural disaster, etc., as well as wonderful business acumen, āgood luckā (in the strict theological sense of the term ; - ) and so on.
The next generation has its own work to do without as much inertia from the previous generationsā successes or failures, laziness or industry. It would also keep a lid on the grotesque economic disparity we see today, globally and locally. Graduated income tax may be the best we can do now policywise, but it is so inequitably administered it is pretty much futile, in the US anyway. When we practice the personal self-sacrifice taught and modeled by our Lord it is better for all, not to mention his renown.
That has meaningful implications.
1 Like
Define ultimate meaning. At the heat death of the universe?
Not my words.
You quoted and addressed them. (Thatās why there was a quote bar.)
For everyone believing they have a purpose here let me ask you a question
What do you think of those people whom lives didnt end up in a good way,or turned them down and never recovered for various reasons.
Did they have a purpose? What happened and they didnt reach it?
1 Like
I quoted an article Iād just criticized. The part you seem to have missed is that the author is reciting a well-known historical argument. Itās not some kind of āI donāt know what sort of evangelical church you went to, but I never heard that ā¦ā argument like Mike made.
If God does not exist, it has been argued, then life can have no ultimate meaning. Historically, the argument has gone along these lines
āHistoricallyā means itās not novel to Kendel or her church. You can look up the references yourself or query the author. Google is your friend.
1 Like
At the risk of making myself a utilitarian, I would say that the meaning of life is closely related to the purpose of life. It is surprising to me that forum devoted to the discussion of evolution has failed to discuss the Survival of the Fittest as the purpose/meaning of life.
Afterall Darwin claimed that that the struggle for existence is the moving force behind all relationships.
Even so this is understandable because the statement that the purpose of life is to live is a tautology and is therefore meaningless. Also, we take Dawkins seriously when he tells us not to mix philosophy with science even though he does so from page one of the Selfish Gene.
Therefore, I will go with Phil jpm and relationships, but not just any relationships, but love, which is the best and fullest relationship. Love can and does lead reproduction, which should please evolutionists, but it must be noted that Jesus Christ did not have any offspring, so He was not āfit.ā
We are to love everyone, even the unloving and selfish, because everyoneās life has purpose and meaning, but this does not mean that we treat or love them the same way.
. .
.
1 Like
I donāt fault you for that. I still like Piper but I think Smith is more excellent in regard to our purpose and meaning. He ventured down the post-modern road and came out on the other side better for it.
Let me dig up some quotes from the chapter Iāve been talking about.
āTropeā frequently has a negative connotation, so perhaps I was mistaken in inferring that you thought life did have some kind of ultimate meaning apart God.
Oh, and thanks for the insight about Google. ChatGPT has some usefulness too, if you havenāt tried it. (It has some usefulness whether youāve tried it or not. ; - )
Saying that life has no ultimate meaning apart from God is different from saying unbelievers lives have no meaning.
I thought that was pretty clear based on my reference to common grace.
1 Like
If Kendel had referenced the trope I probably would not have thought that unbelievers lives do have some degree of meaning due to common grace and this discussion would have been much less interesting.
A few āMeaningā threads (see here, and here) have been on my mind for quite some time, and @NickolaosPappasās was the most recent. Finally, I ran across a book review at work for What do we Mean, When We Talk About Meaning, which focuses on the need to define the question we keep talking about.
When we really focus on answering the question and seeing how otherās approach it, as we are seeing here, the question is interpreted variously. āMeaningā indicates a number of concepts: āgiven purpose,ā āultimate significance,ā āproductivity,ā āvalue,ā āimportance,ā āmeaningfulness,ā āessense,ā āreason to go on living.ā Most of these concepts can be seen as ultimate/eternal/universal or as temporal/mortal, as we are. As ultimates, they assume things outside of us or beyond our control: an assigned value, a given purpose, a designated significance, etc. But most of these concepts can also be understood as features or elements of mortal human life without reference to ultimates. Often our desire for universal āmeaningā seems to overshadow our ability to appreciate the temporal/mortal.
Additionally, focusing on various āmeaningā concepts as ultimates implies our ability to effect permanent change in an eternal universe as if we were gods. I wonder, if by focusing so much on what we can imagine rather than what we can do or be, we arenāt stacking the deck of meaning against ourselves.
Of course Iām biased by my faith that there is a God who loves us and cares for us and sees us as significant. I can comfortably ignore the ultimates, assuming those are covered. However, I donāt think having ultimates solved in this or any other way is all that important ā at least today as I write.
Looking for different terms for the question, Iām considering something like: What is my sense of place or belonging in the world? Itās a smaller, more human-sized question that still allows for me and others to have significance in the world we inhabit. It recognizes my limitations as a living being and focuses on a realistic grasp of my existence.
In viewing life through the question of my sense of place in the world, I see that sense comprised of many threads of experience, that include things like: relationships, values, contribution, dependence, abilities/disabilities, and more. I think a web or fabric comprised of these threads of experience is an apt metaphor.
Iām looking forward to more interactions on this topic. Itās been great to think about this together so far. I have so many posts to catch up on reading now! Itās wonderful.
And finally, some of the fruits of The-Change-Induced-ADD:
3 Likes
In retrospect, I was also talking about any life having ultimate meaning apart from God. Because God, all life has meaning ā his purposes pervade and prevail, not that we comprehend them all, hardly!
First quote from Smithās Enjoying God by Enjoying Creation, and itās one that I absolutely love:
āSo Augustine introduces an important distinction (you can see this across his entire corpus, but especially in book 1 of Teaching Christianity): what God desires and designs for his creatures is a āright order of love,ā which simply means that we are created and called to be creatures who ultimately love the Triune God, and thus find our identity and delight in that rightly ordered love. For Augustine, we are what we love. In fact, we canāt stop loving: even fallen, sinful humanity is still propelled to love; but as sinners, we love the wrong things in the wrong way.ā
1 Like
Nick, thanks for coming to this discussion. Your recent post, āShould we Aspire for a Better World?ā was one of the drivers behind my interest in developing this thread.
This is a really important question.
Just to clarify, do you see the question āWhat is the meaning of life?ā as synonymous with āWhat is the purpose of a personās life?ā or are you addressing your question to those who do (without holding that view yourself)? Or something else?
Part of the problem we are addressing in this thread is what the question actually is that we mean to ask. Not necessarily an easy thing to nail down.
Thanks.
1 Like