What Do You Mean When You Talk About Meaning (of Life, That is)?

[Kendel]

@MarkD

Human affairs are a case in point. Knowledge of something that is by its nature not precise will itself have to be imprecise, if it is to be accurate. Aristotle again: ‘For when the thing is indefinite the rule also is indefinite … the decree is adapted to the facts.’

Yes. This describes much of what I have in mind, and why I prefer the term “sense of.” I don’t only mean a feeling of, but a feel for. Sometimes we can’t quite put our finger on what what we have a sense of, but it’s there, just out of reach. We may not always be able to put our finger on what it is that gives us a sense of place in the world, but we can still experience that sense.

When I was thinking it over yesterday and trying to get a handle on the implications of what I mean to say, I was starting to feel like I was trying to begin writing the Federal Codes of Regulation (the legal application of federal laws). Which is not the point.

So, thanks for this reminder.

@MarkD

An assemblage of someone else’s meaningful words will not always mean anything for someone else.

[Kendel]

@NickolaosPappas

Of course. I’ve changed my mind multiple times.

Life experience forces us to adapt our thinking over and over. I don’t expect to have this completely settled – ever. I think mostly we can see it as a process of elimination. We might not get to a precise answer, which Mark points out is probably not desirable anyway, but we start trimming off the stuff we are fairly certain doesn’t work.

@NickolaosPappas

@Kendel

When you say “dependent” here, do you mean specifically needing something from you? Like affirmation, money, companionship, etc? Or do you mean something more like “emotionally close”? I don’t think they’re the same thing. I just want to make sure I understand what you’re saying.

The second one

After your experiences, I imagine that allowing emotional closeness has got to feel incredibly risky. But your description of the freedom you feel sounds unsatisfying to you as well. Do you feel there is simply no relationship right now that is safe enough to risk at all?

[NickolaosPappas (Nick)]

@Kendel

Life experience forces us to adapt our thinking over and over. I don’t expect to have this completely settled – ever. I think mostly we can see it as a process of elimination. We might not get to a precise answer, which Mark points out is probably not desirable anyway, but we start trimming off the stuff we are fairly certain doesn’t work.

It certainly is that way,however i find it disturbing if someone is changing his views all the time depended on the situation he faces.As ive said ive done it myself and im disgusted by it ,but it is what it is.

For example going form Atheist to Christian then to Evolutionary Christian then to Atheism again and then to some short of Christianity mixed with various theological beliefs(im basically a sect of my own lol) makes me feel like ive betrayed my past self somehow .

@Kendel

After your experiences, I imagine that allowing emotional closeness has got to feel incredibly risky. But your description of the freedom you feel sounds unsatisfying to you as well.

Its a double edge sword.I long the love and the emotional support relationships have and all the family good stuff.BUT

@Kendel

Do you feel there is simply no relationship right now that is safe enough to risk at all?

If my past experiences brought me to a place sometimes even worse than my depression when i was younger then im not sure i want to risk it anymore.

Because the next one i might not be able to overcome.
Of course im not entireely mentally well you could say.Scars have been left and wounds are still open ,so therapy is needed here.

[Kendel]

@NickolaosPappas

It certainly is that way,however i find it disturbing if someone is changing his views all the time depended on the situation he faces.

Yes, no and maybe.
I think what is really disturbing humanly, is when after thinking one had it all figured out, one realizes one didn’t, maybe not at all. Being left ontologically empty handed, with nothing to help make sense of the world is at best disquieting. It’s where some really hard work begins, for which there is no 12 step program.

Some people are never bothered by perpetually swinging wide. You seem to be looking for a center, though. Just haven’t found it yet. I think that’s different.

@NickolaosPappas

makes me feel like ive betrayed my past self somehow .

Sometimes our past selves were simply wrong—youthful, inexperienced, ignorant, prideful, self-centered and just wrong. It’s no betrayal to ourselves to recognize we needed to grow up (and, praise God! we have that opportunity).

A former president here is known for talking about “Staying the Course.” That only makes sense if the initial course was the (or even a) right one.

[MarkD (A Whateverist, not a Christian)]

Yes. The switching of positions isn’t for the sake of an advantage but as a result of learning more about the situation or oneself. No one starts off knowing everything. Growing and learning is wasted on anyone committed to staying the course based on positions adopted at a less developed stage of life. Are we somehow reprehensible for abandoning our preschool values and preferences?

[NickolaosPappas (Nick)]

@Kendel

You seem to be looking for a center, though. Just haven’t found it yet. I think that’s different

You mean looking for something in the middle and not extremes?Sorry if i didnt catch that

@Kendel

Sometimes our past selves were simply wrong—youthful, inexperienced, ignorant, prideful, self-centered and just wrong. It’s no betrayal to ourselves to recognize we needed to grow up (and, praise God! we have that opportunity)

True but that isnt always the case.
When things go bad for you you rethink some things and choises.But that doesnt mean that the beliefs you had earlier on were false because you were pridefull etc etc.For instance my view on God has changed,but my previous one (the one of atheism and even maybe dystheism) doesnt mean was “wrong” or was something that i adopted because i was pridefull and self-centered.Many people held these potisions and i wouldnt consider them that.

[Kendel]

@NickolaosPappas

@Kendel

think that’s different

You mean looking for something in the middle and not extremes?Sorry if i didnt catch that

Sorry. Actually intentially vague. I didn’t want to force you to accept a category I imposed.
I really mean by “center” something more like a bull’s-eye, a target, a place where you can land intellectually and feel like you’ve found a way to understand your world and experience.
Where you eventually land may not be some kind of happy medium between all the frameworks you’ve tried so far.

@NickolaosPappas

When things go bad for you you rethink some things and choises.But that doesnt mean that the beliefs you had earlier on were false because you were pridefull etc etc.

Absolutely. I get it. Been to a different but just as fun party.

[NickolaosPappas (Nick)]

@Kendel

I really mean by “center” something more like a bull’s-eye, a target, a place where you can land intellectually and feel like you’ve found a way to understand your world and experience.
Where you eventually land may not be some kind of happy medium between all the frameworks you’ve tried so far.

I hope i wont land in any extremes.Although i guess i do have some biases still

[Kendel]

@heymike3

@Kendel

This week I’m a bit more focused on other “Meaning of Life” news in my front yard:

I’m sorry you are going through this. And I don’t mean to minimize the grief it has caused. Neither does it minimize the work of God in the world. That was a super article written from a mature theological perspective. I hope when you’re ready you can have a look at it. Craig Keener also expresses a great point of view on it. Highly recommended!

Thanks for recognizing what’s going on over here.

I confess, I am intensely suspicious of such revivals. It’s how I’m wired; I get it from my dad.
There was a noticeable (although not dominant) revivalist current in my churches most my life, and in my extended family. I’ve been around a few – on the far outskirts. The proof is in the pudding. Has anything changed?

Reading about this one (and the Toronto Blessing and whatever else), I also recognize that my body is no trustworthy barometer of blessing. I nearly swooned, reading some of the Kunstmärchen by E.T.A. Hoffmann. Parts of Greg Bear’s Blood Music induce a similar rush.

I was at Michigan State University yesterday, because my high-school age daughter had an Orientation and Mobility lesson. While she worked with her instructor, I walked around and took pictures at the same buildings we had been in just a few weeks before. I put my hands on dead flowers, a grieving person, notes people had left, locked doors and stone banisters.
The Union is the hub of student social life; just a few weeks ago we’d been picking up bus schedules and other useful info. Berkey Hall is where I knit and read (had a class there 30 years ago myself), while they worked and where we finally met up at the end of her lesson. Of course those buildings were closed yesterday. Campus was somber. I gave a hand on the shoulder to a young woman who was clearly grieving. I watched other students fussing with flowers and candles for their dead classmates like one does at the funeral home.

Five students (kids) are still at Sparrow down the road a few miles. Still don’t know how they’re doing. One kid was hit in the spine.

I understand what you’re saying when you quote WMSC Q1. I say it at church. I believe it. By itself, however, it leaves too many questions unanswered and leaves too many people out.

Student Union Main Entrance

Along Grand River in Front of the Union

Berkey Hall Main Entrance

Locked Doors at Berkey Hall

The Note on the Pink Index Card.

[Kendel]

Nick, I expect you’re not done yet, and since it is of concern to you, you’re probably not going to settle on some extreme.

[NickolaosPappas (Nick)]

May i ask if this a school you know what? Im not a US citizen so i dont follow the news sorry.
If so my condolences to everyone affected

[heymike3]

@Kendel

leaves too many people out

I don’t believe it does, “and whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.”

The pictures bring your tragedy home. I am truly sorry.

I don’t get too wrapped up on people going to hell. Maybe I should. I just don’t. My concern is more for those who are still living. And I should be more concerned for those around me than for those I meet on the internet. God have mercy on me. God have mercy on my family and those who I interact with regularly at work.

I shared the Keener video on the Asbury outpouring with an unlikely individual at work. So I expect I shall have less time on my hands for the discussion here.

I get what you are saying about your suspicion of these things. I like how Keener writes and talks about it. Praise God his Spirit opens our eyes and hearts to see his glory. Without that, as James Smith once said, we can’t reason our way out of this mess.

[Kendel]

Thank you, Nick.
Michigan State University is one of my state’s largest state universities. It is a major hub of the communities in the area.
We live about 26 km from the school; I work about 6 km from it; our church was founded on ministries to the students, and a large part of our congregation is from the University. Friends, family and neighbors are students and staff there. My daughters do NOT go to MSU. Many years ago, my husband and I did.
A week ago Monday a man who wasn’t associated with the school walked into a classroom at Berkey Hall and shot some of the students, and then shot some more students in the Union. He killed 3, and 5 are still in the hospital. Then he killed himself.

If one has a leaning to absolute nihilism, this certainly fits the picture well.

[heymike3]

Consider giving Keener 15 minutes, if you start at the beginning, I think you’ll fall in love with him.

His commentary on the warning against sexual immorality to one of the seven churches was outstanding for how plainly spoken and yet fearful it was.

Check out Revelation: Audio Lectures on hoopla digital.
https://www.hoopladigital.com/title/12006960

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@Kendel

If one has a leaning to absolute nihilism, this certainly fits the picture well.

That is all I was saying above.

[LM77 (Liam Maguire)]

@Kendel

I understand what you’re saying when you quote WMSC Q1. I say it at church. I believe it. By itself, however, it leaves too many questions unanswered and leaves too many people out.

If you are willing, I’d love to know a bit more about what you mean by the bit in italics.

I too believe and affirm WMSC Q1, although I’m more of a Heidelberg Catechism kinda guy. Yet, personally, I think the best articulation of the meaning of [the Christian] life is found in Romans 8:29-30:

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

The goal of our lives as believers (imo) is to be conformed to the likeness of Jesus. He is the stencil around which I am to trace the pencil of my life. Personally, I found this one of the single most liberating discoveries of my life.

[Kendel]

Thanks for visiting the thread and interacting, Liam. I know you’re time is tight.

As a Baptist attending a Presby church, I am catching up on confessions. Baptists generally don’t bother with them as a whole, not even our own. Eventually, I need to read the Heidelberg for myself. Q&A 1 is stunning. You can just hear Luther’s shuddering sigh of relief at the security he had finally found in Jesus. It’s no wonder, it’s first. He wanted everyone to get that straight, before anything else.

To be clear, this is a work in progress for me. I doubt that I’ll have everything settled by the time this thread closes. But if people keep showing up now and again and asking interesting questions that keep the discussion lively and thoughtful, well, maybe we could outdo the Suarez thread for durability as well as content value.

To your question

Quoting from you:

@LM77

the meaning of [the Christian] life

That limiter: “[the Christian]” is what I’m getting at with my italics.

I’m sure neither of us sees lives of non-christians as meaningless. (I actually know people from churches who do.) But conceiving life’s meaning solely in Christian terms, I think does imply that.

Additionally, and I hate to bring it up because it has almost become a trope in such discussions, I have never been satisfied with how most churches and doctrines I am aware of, deal with the brute realities of suffering. Even as a Christian, I have found that some of the worst framing of the “big horror” we faced as a nuclear family came from (continues to come from) Christians.

What can be more terrifying, while you’re experiencing whatever your horror is, than to hear blithe references to the “will of God” and “God’s got this” and “God’s in control” and “All things work together for the good of those who love Him.” ? (This is good?) Thinking through the implications of these statements is – well, no one will nominate me for Christian of the year, when I try.

And then we can all focus later on what we’re supposed to have learned from [ __ fill in your real life horror experience here __ ]. By the way, I still haven’t found the verse that encourages this practice.

Sorry, Liam. I can feel myself shifting more deeply into sarcasm. It’s hard not to do.

The path we were hurled onto, brought us into contact with families who’d been through even worse, which is still hard to imagine.

However we understand meaning, I’m looking for something that includes the whole gang, is sized for humans, and doesn’t trivialize the everyday, everyone realities of suffering.

I fleshed out more of it and why in this slide farther up, and in the section about Sisyphys in this slide a bit later.

Ask away. Good questions help me think.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@Kendel

outdo the Suarez thread

Ha!  

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@Kendel

What can be more terrifying, while you’re experiencing whatever your horror is, than to hear blithe references to the “will of God” and “God’s got this” and “God’s in control” and “All things work together for the good of those who love Him.” ? (This is good?)

Silent tearful empathy is good, “liquid prayers”. So is an arm around shoulders, and

@Kendel

I put my hands on… a grieving person

[heymike3]

@Dale

Silent tearful empathy is good, “liquid prayers”. So is an arm around shoulders, and

Reminds me of something I read on my lunch break today from Wendy Widder’s commentary on Daniel:

“This is the strong undercurrent of Daniel 1, but undercurrent it is. The chapter offers no pious platitudes in the world-altering events confronting Judah, and neither should we in moments of crisis. The text does not overtly say, “Everything’s going to be okay — God is in control.” This is true, but it is better communicated subtly and gently.”

And this:

“The psalmist of Psalm 46 takes comfort in God as a refuge and strength, an ever-present help when calamity strikes (46:1 – 3). Even though Yahweh is the one behind the desolation, he remains his people’s fortress (46:8 – 11), and ultimately, he will be exalted among all nations (46:10). When the mountains give way, we need a gentle reminder that there is still one thing left to stand on: God’s sovereignty.”