Ok, I think you meant this article, while Keener doesn’t go into specifics, he is not naive about it:
“He also noted that, while some manifestations were human responses to the work of God’s Spirit, some were imitations or worse.”
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What are the most important things? Do you believe genuine revival or works of the Spirit happen?
- Keener’s a professor at Asbury? Ha! Good to know.
- Interesting article, even Sam Storms’ bio; Good Lord! about the only thing Sam didn’t say about himself is whether he drinks his coffee black or with milk and sugar!
- I have half a mind to email Keener privately and suggest the Asbury crowd go “full on”: unscrew the pews from the floors and encourage circular seating on folding chairs or the floor, and allow–within reason–public testimony, teaching, and singing, followed immediately by private prayer and time for reflecting on whatever has been shared by whoever is “moved” to share it. Nothing, IMO, is more conducive to the Spirit’s flowing, than a circular or oval seating arrangement. Stages are for lectures and performances.
- Will the Asbury Revival last or grow? Who knows?
- “A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. Whoever has ears, let them hear.”
- Just stifle Catholic and “End-times” prophets who want to stir the crowd up with a claim that the Virgin is holding back the Hand of God or that Heavenly War will break out tomorrow. That’s unnecessary and uncallled for fear-mongering.
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N.T. Wright’s comments at Asbury were a topic of discussion here not too long ago 
- In this thread? or elsewhere?
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I wonder if Keener is considered a friend of BioLogos. He is open to theistic evolution and co-wrote the Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible with John Walton.
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- Maybe “Asbury Revival”-related posts merit their own thread.
- N.T. Wright spoke at Asbury? Ha! Better a heathen or atheist than a YEC-cer, eh?
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Funny but when I push back harder to dissuade attempts to perform a conversion smack down on me, it almost never works. The folks whose approach I find ham handed don’t care what I think. With you I didn’t mean to put an end to the discussion. Perhaps my gentle push game needs work? But then I hadn’t responded to your post very thoroughly, a bad habit of mine is giving voice to what moves me initially and then failing to go any deeper. Let me try again.
And what you believe to be true just so happens to provide a framework for making sense of the world and our place in it. A win/win for you guys. But it is also the traditional approach to keeping regard for the sacred kindled that has most defined the milieux I have been brought up in. So I honor Christianity and all those who have made that the focus of your life’s work. I hope sharing my own experience and thoughts never give a different impression on that score.
I’m sure that is true of many but made more sense in a more monolithic culture. In today’s global village we encounter others raised in different wisdom traditions with a regard for what is sacred but who approach it differently. Nowadays not everyone who is unchurched is against all that is holy or blind to what is sacred. If that is true I think it is time for Christianity to examine the way it regards the beliefs of those not in their fold.
I’m not arguing that Christianity does not provide a fine connection to the sacred. I think it does. I just don’t believe it is uniquely adequate. God is not petty, does not think as we do and is not shackled by conceptual categories as we are prone to be. If God is God and not an over amped human, then He is beyond our understanding and we should be much more humble regarding what we are sure of. Whatever we can know is not sufficient to rule God out; nor do I think we can or should categorize other people’s experience and beliefs as unworthy, though their acts and words are another matter.
There was much in what you said and I may have another go later but I feel I’m reaching a TLDR limit for now.
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This! Yes, and amen!
Or also to capture a similar thought that had been expressed in the book “Holy Envy” …
There is no one religion or tradition or culture (not even Christianity) that owns God. (Or as you might add or slightly modify, Mark,) … that owns the sacred.
It’s funny how once you open up a little crack in what you are convinced of, major fissures can follow and lines you thought couldn’t be crossed begin to look feasible. God always seemed a bridge too far but that was only given a too narrow and rigid conception. If it is fundamentally about teleology in regard to what draws chemicals to gather into more and more animate form and the cosmos to evolve in such a way as to make that even possible … who knows? I suspect learning from many traditions might enable a broader conception of what it is we cannot encompass verbally.
Liam I’m afraid if you are going to make such an argument you have to back this up.
There are no paperworks to show that Christians don’t value their faith because it makes sense of the world.
I would counter argue in fact and say that most do indeed believe in God for that reason(although I don’t have anything to back it up)
Lol that is true and I agree. That’s why I never bothered tried to convert or talk about God to anyone
Let’s have that discussion!!
You know me Mervin to be gracious and considerate. But if being uncompromising gets me labeled ham handed, then I guess I must be excluded from talking about it with you.
I’ll add it’s time for Christianity to unite and do a “catharsis” on itself ,on doctrines, and on its adherents. Because too much “acceptance” and “evaluation” has ruined the church in my opinion.
Moral degeneracy runs wild in Christianity today.
If Liam is coming at this as I suppose he is, that Christian belief is properly basic, then no he doesn’t have to back it up. It is a genuine epistemological stalemate. A position which I respect tremendously. But I’d take it a tiny step further to consider what reason can and cannot determine about the world.
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Yeah I think that is fair. For me, it is not that Christian is true because it makes sense of the world, but rather makes sense of the world because it is true. There is, I think, a subtle but profound difference there.
Or to put it another way, IMO, the meaning that Christianity provides to life is a discovered (received?) meaning, not a constructed one.
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Well put.
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Whatever you say. My interactions with Christians tell me otherwise.Especially those of conservitive households,unfotunately.
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Sorry that has been your experience. You have a diverse set of viewpoints to interact with here as you’re doing. May God bless your worthwhile endeavor.
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I respect Longman and likely would agree with 99% of the book (good subtitle: How Our Emotions Reveal Our Deepest Questions About God), but I disagree with everything after the first sentence.
First, it’s not supported by the gospels. Matthew says nothing about the Father’s emotions, but he makes it pretty clear who is mocking and deriding Jesus, as well as who inspired the crowd’s taunts. (Hint: It wasn’t God.) Second, it opens the door to a fundamental misunderstanding of the character of God. On the one hand, classical theism says God is “impassable,” and on the other, the emotions ascribed to God by Longman are mocking, derision, and disgust directed at the Son upon the cross. Are those the actions of a loving Father?
Contemptible? Why not do better instead of doubling down? If certainty regarding one’s beliefs about God was a sin, I’m pretty sure this jury of your peers would find you as guilty as Klax.
C’mon guys. This isn’t hard. Word choice matters. You quote someone and reply “This is a lie.” It’s just as easy to say, “Strongly disagree.” The same applies to Mike.
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