What did Jesus mean "ye shall be as the angels..."


(Theophilus Book) #1

…neither given in marriage?

Angels are called "EESH"
God is an “EESH” of war. Exo 15:2
Men are “EESH” Gen 2:24
Males of animals are “EESH” Gen 7:2

Females of Humans and animals are “EESHEE;” Eve (therefore Humanity) because she was taken out of EESH." Gen 2:23

Short answer, no Females, all will revert to origin which was EESH.

Doesn’t mean no women will be saved, just means all saved souls will be “translated” as EESH.

And what is a soul?
God breathed into Adam’s nostrils, and Man became a living soul. A Soul is what we are, not what we have.


(Laura) #2

So in other words, are you contending that sex/gender is simply a physical, earthly reality that will fall away once our souls go to heaven?


(Theophilus Book) #3

.[quote=“Elle, post:2, topic:38596, full:true”]
So in other words, are you contending that sex/gender is simply a physical, earthly reality that will fall away once our souls go to heaven?[/quote]

Not “contending” at all; offering for consideration. I see nothing in scripture that suggests a need for gender after this life. The next, (or eternal) life is spiritual, which is neuter. I suspect I know why. There will be no purpose for gender after this adventure is over. Replication will not be an issue, and the joy offered will cease to matter in light of the new joy of eternal things.


(Laura) #4

I can see where you’re coming from there, and that sounds similar to what I’ve heard from others who’ve pondered this idea. Based on what you’ve said, the next thing that comes to mind for me is what extent we can know the purpose of gender. Yes, someday reproduction won’t be necessary, and we’ll experience joy we’ve never known here – is it safe to say that reproduction and joy are the primary (sole?) purpose/function for gender in the here and now, or is there anything more to it?


(Theophilus Book) #5

[quote=“Elle, post:4, topic:38596, full:true”]
I can see where you’re coming from there, and that sounds similar to what I’ve heard from others who’ve pondered this idea. Based on what you’ve said, the next thing that comes to mind for me is what extent we can know the purpose of gender. Yes, someday reproduction won’t be necessary, and we’ll experience joy we’ve never known here – is it safe to say that reproduction and joy are the primary (sole?) purpose/function for gender in the here and now, or is there anything more to it?[/quote]

Replication of the species is prevalent in most species of animal, and some species of plant, Some insects, and much that is covered by my ignorance.

I personally think that is the reason Adam fell into the trap set by Eve who “was in the transgression” by listening to the serpent and eating the forbidden fruit; she took the fruit to her husband and he ate thereof.

Remember the account of what transpired prior to Eve’s creation? All animals passed before Adam, and he named them all. I do not think this transpired in one day. I think it transpired over an extended period, sufficient for Adam to see the entire animal kingdom of His day; and I think he saw the animals in most of their functioning life-styles, including that of breeding.

“God saw that it was not good for man to be alone.” I am in total sympathy with that situation. Adam saw that animals had something not available to him. So did God. God did something about it.

He put Adam into a deep sleep, took one of his ribs and formed a woman, gave her to Adam with the instruction, “Be fruitful and multiply…” because replication was the only possible way provided for Messiah, should he ever become necessary;The purpose of which becomes evident when you consider Messiah is now in play, because God made provision for every eventually, beginning in the garden.

Suppose Eve had sinned, and Adam did not? God made provision for it.

Suppose neither had sinned? God made provision for that.

And in all of those provisions, Messiah was provided, not because it was a necessity, but because the necessity was always a possibility. And that is because God gave MAN
"FREE WILL" which precludes a sinless result void of reality.

Adam had lived as the only Human, and when he was given the woman for a mate, he loved her and lived with her to a degree of time we have no way of knowing how much time took place while they honeymooned in the garden of
Eden.

All I know for certain, is, he did not want to live alone again. When he saw what his mate had done, he never hesitated, but immediately joined her in her disobedience. I do think his ignorance about the meaning of “Thou shalt surely die” may have contributed to the issue, because no one had died at that time, so it may have been understood, or not, but It soon became the norm, and had to be dealt with in reality.

But Adam was loyal to his mate, as no other human will ever be.

And I reserve a special appreciation for Adam’s sacrifice in my heart, because he demonstrated for all men, what true love consists of. This nonsense today of men loving their wives until they hurt his feelings, is absolute stupidity.

The New Testament tells husbands to learn about their wives, understand them, which I know of very few who even know what that means.

If you want to know what Man’s love for woman is, study Adam in the beginning. It is the most beautiful, and consequential, love story ever written.


#6

How will I know which bathroom to use?


(Theophilus Book) #7

You simply go behind the tree of life that has been transplanted from Eden to heaven, beside the river of life.


(George Brooks) #8

I’ve always been attracted to the idea that Heaven will be filled with “transfigured” humans, including Moses and Elijah !!!


(Theophilus Book) #9

The actual word used is “Translated” which is the same word used with reference to Enoch, who pleased God, and was “translated” that he did not see death, because he had this testimony, that He pleased God.

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Christians will be "translated"
Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Nice post!


(Christy Hemphill) #10

I can’t find that word in this verse.

The Hebrew word you are noting means male.

It doesn’t make any sense to say that females will “revert” to males if you are also claiming gender isn’t a thing in heaven. Females were not “originally” males, no matter how literally you interpret the creation account of Genesis 2, which clearly says God created humanity as male and female. Eve was taken “out of the male,” but the male was formed from the dust, so by your logic, will all males revert to dust in heaven? Plus, on a scientific note, all embryos will develop into females unless the Y chromosome triggers the release of hormones at the right point in pregnancy, so there is no basis in reality to the assertion that females are at some basic level really males.

Females will be males in heaven is kind of kooky talk and borders on being pretty sexist.


(Jay Johnson) #11

Have you ever read the ending of the Gospel of Thomas? It ends with Peter requesting that Jesus send away Mary Magdalene because “women are not worthy of life.” Jesus replies, “I myself shall lead her in order to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every woman who will make herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven.”

I wonder where we would be now if the church had accepted that book into the canon? Could you sit through a sermon on it?


(Jay Johnson) #12

I should also note that Jesus is the groom, the church is the bride, and the consummation is the “wedding feast of the Lamb.” Therefore, all of us are female in heaven.


(George Brooks) #13

Nice detail on Translated from the O.T.

In the New Testament, we see Jesus joined by TRANSFIGURED MOSES AND ELIJAH. [I guess Enoch was too obvious!]

This imagery was inspired by the popular idea in messianic Judaism that the righteous was be “changed” in the afterlife. Moses is in this theme because it was said that nobody could find his grave because he was no longer on Earth!


(Theophilus Book) #14

[quote=“Christy, post:10, topic:38596, full:true”]

I can’t find that word in this verse. [/quote]

sorry - should be verse 3 (slip of the bic)

[quote=“Christy, post:10, topic:38596, full:true”]
The Hebrew word you are noting means male.

It doesn’t make any sense to say that females will “revert” to males if you are also claiming gender isn’t a thing in heaven. Females were not “originally” males, no matter how literally you interpret the creation account of Genesis 2, which clearly says God created humanity as male and female. Eve was taken “out of the male,” but the male was formed from the dust, so by your logic, will all males revert to dust in heaven? Plus, on a scientific note, all embryos will develop into females unless the Y chromosome triggers the release of hormones at the right point in pregnancy, so there is no basis in reality to the assertion that females are at some basic level really males.

Females will be males in heaven is kind of kooky talk and borders on being pretty sexist.[/quote]

Well, when you consider, in the Septuagint GREEK “Heaven” is masculine, and Earth is Feminine, so it all started when God made MAN from “Mother Earth.” Is THAT “sexist?” I don’t think so.

And why would you care? Are you saying God should let WOMEN design their “Spiritual bodies?” Are you saying that would be an improvement? Or simply women’s ego would be salved?


(Theophilus Book) #15

[quote=“gbrooks9, post:13, topic:38596, full:true”]
Nice detail on Translated from the O.T.

In the New Testament, we see Jesus joined by TRANSFIGURED MOSES AND ELIJAH. [I guess Enoch was too obvious!]

This imagery was inspired by the popular idea in messianic Judaism that the righteous was be “changed” in the afterlife. Moses is in this theme because it was said that nobody could find his grave because he was no longer on Earth![/quote]

Deuteronomy 34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.6 And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.


(Christy Hemphill) #16

Grammatical gender and the actual lexical item to name a gender are two different things. It’s not just that the word you are referencing is grammatically masculine, it means ‘male.’ Grammatically masculine nouns may or may not apply to women depending on their meaning. The word ‘male’ doesn’t.

I think our genders are a foundational element of our humanity that is more than our chromosomes and sex organs. If I was not a woman in heaven, I would not be me. Jesus was resurrected a man. It is marriage and procreation that won’t be in heaven, not men and women.


(George Brooks) #17

@Theo_Book

Yes… I know that it mentions Moses was buried. This can either be a veiled reference to the old requirement that the dead enter the afterlife via sheol…

… or God resurrected him out of the grave (as we read in one of the New Testament crucifixion texts).

You can’t just ignore the inclusion of Moses in the episode. It is contemporary folklore in the messianic movements of the day.


(Theophilus Book) #18

[quote=“gbrooks9, post:17, topic:38596, full:true”]
@Theo_Book

Yes… I know that it mentions Moses was buried. This can either be a veiled reference to the old requirement that the dead enter the afterlife via sheol…

… or God resurrected him out of the grave (as we read in one of the New Testament crucifixion texts).[/quote]

That was not the resurrection. It will be a later thing that takes place, after men are all gone.

[quote=“gbrooks9, post:17, topic:38596, full:true”]
You can’t just ignore the inclusion of Moses in the episode. It is contemporary folklore in the messianic movements of the day. [/quote]

Do you have a reference?


(Theophilus Book) #19

[quote=“Christy, post:16, topic:38596, full:true”]

[quote=“Theo_Book, post:14, topic:38596”]
Well, when you consider, in the Septuagint GREEK “Heaven” is masculine, and Earth is Feminine, so it all started when God made MAN from “Mother Earth.” Is THAT “sexist?” I don’t think so.[/quote]

Grammatical gender and the actual lexical item to name a gender are two different things. It’s not just that the word you are referencing is grammatically masculine, it means ‘male.’ Grammatically masculine nouns may or may not apply to women depending on their meaning. The word ‘male’ doesn’t. [/quote]

In the Septuagint, both “Male” and “female” (the designations) are neuter. I find that significant.

You may be right. Of course that would alter Jesus words “Ye shall be as the angels in heaven.” Angels being “EESH.”

Or it could simply reference a fact that there will be no marriages, like the angels, all will be single. I hadn’t really gone beyond the gender issue. Perhaps I will look at it again. Thanks!


(Theophilus Book) #20

That doesn’t necessarily follow - Israel was the bride of God in the old testament - Male and Female. It appeals to me that the Husband/Bride relationship has more to do with protector and protectee than gender-related. God supplied all of Israel’s needs, both in daily living, and in surviving in a much larger environment of hostility as regards Human enmities.