None of them change that fact.
Probably because you didn’t bother to read the scholarly papers in the links I provided.
After being given 75 years advance notice? How far could Noah walk in just 25 of those years?
And since you are the expert, how fast do the flood waters rise in Jalore? What do the current residents do during a flood? What local mountains are completely covered by these floods?
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The Bible says that God promised that He would not bring the Flood again. So present floods are not comparable. That said:
- how fast do the flood waters rise in Jalore? They may rise in a matter of few hours.
- What do the current residents do during a flood? They have generally built their villages on the mounds. They stay put hoping that the waters do not indundate their homes.
- What local mountains are completely covered by these floods? These mountains are the sand dunes maybe up to 100 feet high.
True. I will certainly read if you give the page number and tell the relevance to the present discussion. Please be kind. I have limitations of time.
So the Noahchian Flood is a miracle, in which case the current geography doesn’t matter. God could cause a flood anywhere.
A web page, very short.
A web page, very short.
15 pages, read the abstract. This paper just documents the changes in sea level.
Late Quaternary sea-level changes of the Persian Gulf
11 pages, this paper documents the extensive flooding.
The geomorphological and hydrogeological evidences for a Holocene deluge in Arabia
We have a saying here, “You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink.” Spend 15 minutes just skimming these links and then at least you can’t say you haven’t seen evidence for flooding in the Persian Gulf.
The relevance is this is a much larger flood than your example. A flood that would appear to cover the whole earth and did cover real mountains.
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Error 404 both.
Site search on the first yielded this:
Nothing with that exact title on the second, but several similar to choose from:
site:academia.edu The geomorphological and hydrogeological evidences for a Holocene deluge in Arabia - Google Search
The Flood would leave physical evidence.
I quote: “At its peak, the floodplain now below the Gulf would have been about the size of Great Britain, and then shrank as water began to flood the area. Then, about 8,000 years ago, the land would have been swallowed up by the Indian Ocean, the review scientist said.”
So the time is important. When do you think Adam, Noah, Abram and Moses lived? If possible please provide supporting docs for these dates.
I think I provided links to articles that discussed the physical evidence of a massive flood. And for a local, not global, flood what different evidence would you expect to find that would identify that flood as different from any other normal, local flood?
Adam and Noah we don’t know. The genealogies were not intended to set dates so you can’t use them for that purpose.
Abram and Moses can be dated, not accurately, by the Bible.
They all work for me here in the US. You could try using a VPN that lets you appear to be in the US.
The best proof for the flood is just simply that it’s alluded to by a few different biblical authors in both the new and Old Testament. The fact it is not compatible with science is irrelevant because the supernatural miracles of the Bible are not verifiable through science…. Ehhhh I mean the same Holy Spirit that opened up the heavens and flooded the world also allowed Jesus to instantly wither a tree, turn water into wine and a few other things.
No way thanks. What mountain covering flood actually happened again?
(I got 404 errors on both links from smack in the middle of the US. ; - )
Bill i think this is the easiest way to approach this and I’m not sure what all kind of dialogue has happened. I did not read most of beyond the initial comments I read how ever many days ago I was first on here.
When reading genesis you’ll notice that the writing style of genesis 1-11 is very different from the rest of genesis. The speed and characters at which the story moves is unique to specific types of storytelling.
So what genre do you think best describes genesis 1-11? Do you believe it’s a historical narrative telling of real life people and events exactly as it happened?
You may be right. But hen we need to put forth an alternate time and examine the lieterary, genealogical, archaeological and other evidences in a comparative frame. Cannot simply rubbish one for some imprecision. As I said, the years could refer to lineages. If not, then please specify what do they mean?
The difference in styles may be due to the different modes of transition. That does not indicate anything about historicity,
There may be redactions. But I believe the main content to be historically true. We have just been looking at the wrong places.
Maybe. However, if two interpretations of a verse are possible, I’d take one that is compatible with science.
Mohenjo Daro was abandoned around 1500 BCE because of the Floods.
It was on the Indus. Drowning a third of Pakistan as we speak. But not vertically above any mountains.
I do not find “vertically” in the Bible. Please consider the following:
First let us look at whether the Bible tells of a global flood. God first told of his intention to bring a Flood: “I am about to bring floodwaters on the land to destroy from under the visible sky the living creatures that have the breath of life in them. Everything that is in the land will die” ( Bible , Genesis 6:17). The conventional translation of this verse reads “I am about to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy from under the sky all the living creatures that have the breath of life in them. Everything that is on the earth will die.” The Hebrew word for “earth” is “erets.” It also means “land” (Strong’s 0776). The Hebrew word for “sky” is “shamayim.” It also means “visible sky” (Strong’s 08064). The Hebrew word for “living creatures” is “basar.” It only means, “living creatures” (Strong’s 01320). There is no “all” in the Hebrew text.
The Bible then describes the Flood “The flood was on the land for forty days. As the waters increased, they lifted the ark and raised it above the land . The waters much prevailed over the land , and the ark floated on the surface of the waters. The waters much spread on the land so that even all the high mountains under the entire visible sky were covered. The waters rose more than twenty feet towards the mountains” ( Bible, Genesis 7:17-20). We give the Net Bible translation of this verse below. We have added numbers in parenthesis to connect with the alternative meanings that follow later in this endnote: “The flood engulfed the earth (1) for forty days. As the waters increased, they lifted the ark and raised it above the earth. The waters completely overwhelmed (2) the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the waters. The waters completely inundate d (3) the earth so that even all the high mountains under the entire sk y (4) were covered. The waters rose more than twenty feet above (5) the mountains.”
We reinterpret the phrases given in italics in the above verses as follows. (1) The Hebrew word for “engulfed the earth” is “erets” which also means “land” or “ground” (Strong’s 0776). There is no “engulfed” in the Hebrew text. (2) and (3) The Hebrew word for “completely overwhelmed” and “completely inundated” is “gabar.” It also means “prevailed” (Strong’s 1396). There is no “completely” in the Hebrew text. (4) The Hebrew word for “sky” is “shamayim.” It is also used for “visible sky” (Strong’s 08064). (5) The Hebrew word for “above” is “ma’al.” It also means toward (Strong’s 4605). The term “visible sky” used in both the above verses indicates that the “land” in these verses referred to the area that could be seen by the eye.
One post was me being a bit sarcastic and the other post was me trying to get Bill to consider reading it all in the proper context. When it comes to genesis 1-11 I have two views that I think can be equally right and still maintain reality. Neither of those views is a literalistic reading and neither of those views reject science.
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It’s purely a giant literary device. It’s 100% fiction. None of those people were real and none of those events were real and it’s all there to convey truths , counter the world views of other Mesopotamian faiths and set up biblical patterns and tropes.
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It’s a myth built on hyperbolic editing of real people and events. Such as Adam and Eve were real, but they were not made from dirt and magic. They were brought to a promise land just like Moses and the Israelites were going for. They were just two normal humans like us. They are descendants of a single organism just like all life shares a common ancestor. Noah was a real man. He was warned by god of a localized flood. A flood that perhaps wiped out the overwhelming majority of his small clan. Just like the wilderness wiped out the majority of Moses clan. Just like a angel warned Abraham about Sodom and warned Joseph and Mary about Herod. So this guy built a boat to remain to the last moment as a testimony to the people about god and the waters came down but him , his family and livestock various wild animals were kept safe. But it was not global. It’s just tall tales about real things. It’s like taking Abraham Lincoln and the war and reimagining it with vampires as “Abraham Lincoln The Vampire Slayer. So my two views are that it’s either a historical fiction retold as a myth or it’s just purely fiction with no basis in reality told ad a myth to convey wisdom.