What Are Your Views on Adam and Eve?

I’m not trying to disprove that Adam and Eve (or to translate their Hebrew names, Human and Liv) were historical individuals from whom all other humans biologically descend. There are fine reasons to believe that; you listed a couple at the top of your first post in this thread. But I don’t see how the Bible’s genealogies are among those reasons. While the genealogies are compatible with that view, they don’t require it.

I brought up Ham’s sons Egypt and Canaan to show that genealogies may also reference real people groups as if they were individuals. There are more choices than Human being a real individual or a made-up character. The Human that heads the human genealogy may represent the beginning of humanity just as the man named Egypt represents the beginning of the nation of Egypt.

Luke’s genealogy shows that even when we have references to real individuals, they may not be connected through biological descent. It begins and ends with relations that aren’t biological: Jesus from Joseph and Adam from God.

Because Joseph is only presumed to be Jesus’ biological father, that means the rest of the genealogy also isn’t about Jesus’ blood line. When it says, “He was the son (as was thought) of Joseph son of Heli,” we aren’t supposed to replace Joseph with either the Holy Spirit or Mary. Neither of them is the “son of Heli” – Joseph is. So Luke’s genealogy may give the legal, political or even familial line of relations for Jesus, but it doesn’t show his biological descent. I don’t see how we could claim that Luke’s genealogy is “more than mere biological descent,” but “certainly not less” without denying the virgin birth.

Sure. Egyptians and Englishmen started somewhere too, but we aren’t going to isolate the historically first Egyptian or first speaker of English. My views on the inspiration of Scripture don’t include the human authors being given omniscient knowledge about whatever they wrote about. So I see the genealogies in Genesis, Matthew and Luke as constrained by what information the authors had available to them. There was a limit to what they knew about the origins of Egypt, Canaan and humanity in general. Once they reached those limits, they used representative characters: Egypt, Canaan, Human. That’s enough for their purposes.

They’re not claiming every Egyptian is a blood relative of a man named Egypt, but making political claims about the relationships between the many people groups of their day. The narratives do the same thing, such as when Lot’s incest with his daughters births the Moabites and Ammonites (Gen. 19:36–38). Whether in narrative or genealogy, such attributions serve a political purpose. Treating them as tidy family trees that claim everyone in a group shares the same blood ancestor reads modern genealogy into ancient genealogy.

Putting Human at the head of the human lineage makes another shocking political claim. The story of Human and Liv is Israel’s story compacted: formed by God, given the law, brought into a good land, but facing exile after they break covenant with God. By having Human live Israel’s story in miniature, people of all nations are given permission to see themselves in Israel’s story. The bulk of our Bible doesn’t just trace the particular history of one people group – it’s also a window into the universal story of Human and God.

I think we need a different category for what it means to say that Egypt is the son of Ham than either historical individual or fictitious fairy tale. Representative figure, symbol, archetype – something like that.

Human and Liv at the beginning of Genesis have many facets. They represent the beginning of humanity; they represent each human being; and by being modelled on Israel’s national story, they’re an invitation to continue seeing ourselves on the page as we move through the Bible. None of this requires that they also be based on actual individuals, though neither does it deny that they could be. But if we’re focused on ferreting out a special blood line of real humanity, I think we’ve missed the core message.

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Roman, I’ve already replied to you here What Are Your Views on Adam and Eve? - #108 by 1Cor15.54 , but I just wanted to let you know that, starting tomorrow and for the next 7–10 days, I won’t really be able to be present on the forum. Family and work commitments won’t allow me to have any meaningful presence here until around October 7th or 8th.

So, if you reply to me again and the topic happens to be closed before I get a chance to respond, I’ll simply open another thread. Your posts are always very interesting and well thought out, so there’s no way I’m going to leave one of them unaddressed.

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Counts for what? Either you are human or you are not. That is the scale I am operating on. The model I put forward is God ensouled two people and their descendents. You can dispute this but this is the way I reconcile Paul, the genealogies and original sin with science: by suggesting all humans born after that point were given supernatural souls by God. I understand arguments for polygenism (we can say God ensouled a group) and that Adam is often used in a representative fashion, but that is not exclusively so and inconsistent with Paul’s punctiliar views. I admit it is not provable but that is what I mean by genealogical relations. Unless other humans were created by God de novo, then I find we are all linked to Adam and Eve through genealogy or we simply are not human. For me, any model of human origins that doesn’t account for the soul is as potentially wrong as one that doesn’t account for evolution.

To me this question has nothing to do with covenants or adoption via specific family bloodlines. It’s about the point in history where the transition from animal to human occurred. Biblical genealogies are not interested in that but I’m interested in what unites us all as full metaphysical humans and my model happily reconciles all the data.

You raise a good point about Genesis 10 but I think it supports my view. Is the table of nations a comparable genealogy to that found in Genesis 5 and that found in Luke? They seem a bit different. One is geographical and hierarchical while the others are linear/chronological. Even then, those toponyms represent real people. Even if what you are arguing is true, Adam in the Biblical genealogies is still going to lead us to monogenism or polygenism. Egyptians and Canaanites were certainly groups of real people in history. Whether we are dealing with individuals or toponyms, we are never in the land of make believe.

Bill Arnold wrote the following (New Cambridge or Baker)

As we have seen, genealogies in Genesis are either linear or segmented, their form being dependent upon their function (see introduction and Closer Look at p. 82). Rather than unfortunate necessities, such genealogical lists comprise an integral component in ancient Israel’s story. The genealogy of Gen 10 is “segmented” or horizontal, in that it branches out in order to trace various descendants. Such ancient lists provided a powerful social identification, especially for its explanatory value. In this case, Gen 10 locates Israel in relationship to all other people groups by highlighting the ancestor Eber (related to “Hebrew,” vv. 21 and 24–25). As a medium of special relevance for ancient authors, such genealogical assertions of identity and territory define Israel’s position in relation to others.

The names included in this list are viewed at times as individuals (Japheth, Ham, Shem, etc.), locations (Egypt, Canaan, Sidon, etc.), or people groups (complete with gentilic endings, Caphtorim, Jebusites, Amorites, etc.). Each is the progenitor of other children who are not part of the Israelite ancestry and who become the ancestors of other people groups in the known world. As we have observed (see commentary at Gen 4), by means of this process of genealogical differentiation (“divergence”) Genesis gives explanation to other populations in a kind of ethnic map of the world, and explains further the way Israel related to those populations.

While the world’s populations are described through this process of branching, Israel’s lineage is traced in distinction to these through a straight line, from Adam to Jacob. In each generation, only one son continues the Israelite ancestry. This process is used routinely in Genesis to present and discuss each of the “other” descendants of Israel’s ancestors first, before picking up the descent line of interest.

. . .

By so tracing the line of Jacob, in a careful invergence of direct descent, and at the same time defining carefully the origins of all other people groups of Israel’s world, this genealogy defines and clarifies what it means to be an ancient Israelite. Gen 10 thus prepares ancient Israelites to embrace their identity as the people of God. Similarly, it prepares today’s readers for the rest of the Genesis account, and therefore, for the rest of biblical literature, as a means of embracing one’s own identity in the ongoing saga of God’s story.

I think we should be cautious of using a segmented genealogy to interpret a linear one. Even then, I take it as one point of the table of nations is that everything traces back to Noah and therefore, Adam. Genesis 10 seems to be about how Israel is related to the rest of the world and thus I see the toponyms (Egypt and Canaan) as actually supporting my view. They might not be giving an unabridged and exact history of names (“Treating them as tidy family trees”) but I disagree with you and think the account is saying everyone shares the same blood ancestor. They all go back to the same place.

And my point would be that this is almost certainly true, it’s just not the limit or extent of what the Biblical data points to. Adam is both historical and an archetype/representative in both Genesis and Paul. I am not offering a simplistic, literal reading. mI do understand now that you do not see any of the names as fictional.

For a starting response, if I grant this exception, it simply proves the rule. Why did Luke feel the need to include the Joseph disclaimer? Because in the ancient world, the default expectation of a linear genealogy was biological descent.

I’d say Jospeh is more of a legal proxy and since Mary is a human and so too was Jesus, descent from Adam is still necessary. I haven’t seen a good argument against this being Mary’s line aside form claims that it is an ad hoc harmonization. Of course, that in itself is not a compelling refutation of the claim.

My point would be that Luke is writing an ancient bios about Jesus, he is the subject of most of the verbs and Luke is giving him, the Son of God, a genealogy that traces back to Adam, another specially birthed son of God. My point is only that the names in Luke’s genealogy represent real people in his mind. Whereas Matthew goes to Abraham and shows Jesus is the Jewish Messiah, Luke goes all the way back emphasizing Jesus as the savior of all people. There is a bit of a second Adam in Luke. The Holy Spirit declares Jesus God’s son during the baptism and right after Luke’s genealogy:

on of Shem, son of Noah, son of Lamech, **37 **son of Methuselah, son of Enoch, son of Jared, son of Mahalaleel, son of Cainan, **38 **son of Enos, son of Seth, son of Adam, son of God.

Vinnie

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It’s only incompatible with Paul from a modern individualist perspective, not from an ancient Jewish perspective.

I disagree. Paul’s perspective is an ancient Jewish perspective and the parallelism is quite clear as is his punctiliar view of sin and death. I’d say your view of the ancient Jewish perspective is too narrow if it excludes Paul’s thoughts. Paul also treats Adam as both historical and representative.

Vinnie

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That’s why I’m uncomfortable with modern genealogical conceptions of Adam and Eve. They lead to doubt about whether we’re (all) human. Everything comes to depend on a solid biological link back to two people we don’t even know where to place in history. The story linking us together as humanity created as God’s image instead becomes a reason to question who really belongs.

God knows. I wouldn’t want to insist that the only way God could do this is to give souls to two people as well as all their biological descendents. If I held a traducianist view of soul origins, perhaps that approach would seem most likely, but if each soul is created independently, God’s hands are not tied by biological descent.

Luke 3:23: “Jesus was about thirty years old when he began his work. He was the son (as was thought) of Joseph son of Heli…”

I think suggesting that Luke wants us to see Mary as the son of Heli is unfair to both Luke and Mary.

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I’m uncomfortable with God creating via evolution and life being predicated on the destruction of other life. That is not a good reason to shy away from asking questions and the evidence suggests it is how things were done. Our comfort is sometimes irrelevant to some aspects of reality.

It is irrelevant if I know where to place Adam and Eve. What is relevant to me are the constraining factors:

  1. What scripture teaches about the punctiliar nature of sin and death for humans, including original sin. Also what its genealogies imply.
  2. What we learn from metaphysics about immaterial souls
  3. What we learn from science about the development of life
  4. What the Holy Spirit led Church has believed and taught virtually since its inception.

And I don’t see it as questioning who really belongs but answering why we all belong which is important to me since I am steeped in a modern worldview of mindless atoms and meaningless brute forces.

Correct. What does this have to do with my view which is not about tying God’s hands? It’s about coming up with a compatible model that allows us to affirm scripture instead of relegating everything to myth while claiming “modern science has shown the story not to be literally true” which is the default in liberal Christianity today. It’s a model that takes into account the four things mentioned above. As I wrote in my article:

Keep in mind that I do not claim to be able to prove everything I mention below. This is an exercise in showing how we can harmonize a specific interpretation of scripture with what we know from science. It assumes that both provide true descriptions of reality and works out a compatible solution from there. I do not think it is far-fetched as it does not revise any doctrine but changes how we understand the facts leading to that doctrine. James Chastek from the Just Thomism blog notes, “The revision that is called for is not a revision in doctrine but a move from the simplest set of facts congruent with a doctrine to a less simple set of facts congruent with the same doctrine.”

If God does things different, God does things differently. Either way, we are all human in my view, with immaterial souls and original sin is a correct doctrine.

That and the fact that genealogies are generally male centered are the two problems with the view. Many Christians have not considered them insurmountable. Lightfoot and others started at the other end and tried giving this view footing. Apologists point to the prominent role of Mary in the entire Lukan infancy narrative and the lack of the definite article when listing Joseph compared to the other names. Their view is Joseph is a sort of parenthetical note. Or maybe Heli had no sons and Mary was an heiress so Jospeh was more than just the Son in law of Heli, but now the acting male heir. Joseph could be legitimately included in a Marian genealogy in this case. It has difficulties but I wouldn’t dismiss it solely because it is a harmonization.

Other solutions have difficulties too. The Levirate marriage proposal is unlikely as it had to have happened multiple times. Augustine’s solution is Joseph may have been adopted. One gives his biological father and the other his adopted father. My understanding is that legal adoption was considered fully sufficient for royal inheritance at the time so it’s not an issue for Luke. We could also say the gospel authors had no clue about Jesus’s genealogy and just appended lists for theological purposes. That is troubling because we are expecting people to believe a man walked on the sea based on reporting so poorly researched, it can’t even agree on who his grandfather was.

We can pick one of these solutions or provide an alternative. I think Joseph being adopted is the best posture for Christians to take followed by seeing the genealogy as Mary’s. The solution --assuming we need one–for Matthew and Luke’s genealogical discrepancies is a point of contention for Christians today. Either way, Luke connects Jesus and Adam as sons of God in a special sense. Gives me Pauline vibes and Luke is clearly referring to real people in a linear genealogy (which is the only point I need).

Vinnie

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My answer is the second option.

Before the Fall, I do not posit two numerically distinct personal subjects who merely lack ordinary terrestrial biological bodies.

I am proposing one created Edenic personal ground within which there are two real internal distinctions, which I call the Adamic and Eveic distinctions.

Those distinctions are real, but they are not yet two persons, two souls, or two independently existing personal subjects. I also do not identify the Adamic and Eveic distinctions with active and receptive principles, or with biological male and female sex.

I am prepared to give arguments for this position. But before doing that, I would like to make sure that I correctly understand the grounds on which we are having this discussion. Otherwise, we risk beginning with one question and later discovering that we have been using the same words within different anthropological models.

So I would first like to clarify several points in your position.

Do you still affirm both of these positions?

When you call Adam and Eve “the first human pair” within this larger population, what exactly makes them first? Do you mean the first two bearers of individual rational souls, the first personal human beings, the first human beings to enter into a special relationship with God, or something else?

And am I understanding you correctly that by “Adam and Eve as the first human pair” you mean two already numerically distinct personal subjects, each existing in a genuine body-soul unity, even if the mode of their Edenic embodiment may have differed from our present terrestrial biological form?

Am I understanding you correctly that this is your own position in our discussion: each individual spiritual soul is immediately created by God and is not produced by the parents?

There is one further hermeneutical point that I would like to clarify before moving to the arguments.

For present purposes, I am setting aside readings in which the Eden narrative has no corresponding real Edenic reality or real Fall, since both of us are treating the Fall as real.

I would roughly distinguish three possible ways of relating the reality of Eden to the imagistic language of the text.

1. Eden is an ordinary terrestrial historical setting populated by two ordinary biological human beings, and the principal events of the narrative belong fairly directly to that terrestrial historical order.

2. Adam and Eve are ordinary terrestrial biological human beings, but some other elements of the Eden narrative — the trees, the serpent, God walking in the garden, Eve’s origin from Adam, and so on — convey the reality in a figurative or mediated register. In that case, a further question arises about the criterion by which we move between direct description and image.

3. The Edenic scene as a whole refers to something real, including a real event, but to a mode of being that is not identical with ordinary terrestrial biological life. The text communicates that reality through images available to human language because we do not possess a direct vocabulary for such a mode of being.

My model is closest to the third option. Which of these is closest to your own position? If none of them, how would you formulate the alternative?

And one final point:

Am I understanding you correctly that you are invoking Gregory of Nyssa as an argument directly against the possibility of one Edenic personal ground in the sense in which I am proposing it?

If I have represented your position incorrectly anywhere, please correct me. I would like first to fix these starting points as precisely as possible, and only then lay out the arguments for my model.

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Thanks for your answer. I’ll reply as soon as I can, and If I’m not able to respond before the thread closes, I’ll open a new one, like a wrote you a few posts ago.

I’m heading to Florence now, and I’ll be very busy with work and family commitments until around October 7th or 8th, but thank you again for taking the time to write your post. Interesting as always.

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I would say all three:

first two bearers of individual rational souls
the first personal human beings
the first human beings to enter into a special relationship with God

Its not about dogmatically proving this as one can’t but simply coming up with a model that fits in with what I know/think to be scientifically true about life’s development, what I know/think to be metaphysically true about immaterial souls, and what I know/think to be true scripturally about sin and death coming in through one man who also shows up in genealogies.

Yes. Catholics reject traducianism because the soul is immaterial (the form of the body). It is not hard to see the difficulties of creating something immaterial through physical generation (principle of proportionate causality).

Eden looks like an ancient sacred space (Walton).

Vinnie

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Have a safe trip to Florence, Massimiliano, and I hope everything goes well with both work and your family commitments.

Please don’t worry at all about replying quickly — whenever you have the time is absolutely fine. And if the thread closes in the meantime, we can always continue the conversation in a new one.

Thanks for letting me know. I hope you have a good trip and that everything goes smoothly over the next couple of weeks.

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Hi Vinnie, thanks — this was very helpful. Your “all three” answer makes the architecture of your model much clearer to me.

I have been following a number of your comments in different threads for some time, and I find your position genuinely interesting. What I would like to do first is understand it as accurately as I can, and then compare it with my own model to see where the two approaches overlap and where the real differences between them lie.

Do you understand these three as aspects of essentially one transition?

In other words, is the decisive transition in your model the divine act by which Adam and Eve become the first bearers of rational souls, the first personal human beings, and the first humans to enter into this special relationship with God?

And are you still leaving open both possibilities you have mentioned elsewhere — that God selected two already existing biological humans from a larger population, or that He created Adam and Eve de novo?

I am interested in what this means more precisely in your model, because by itself “sacred space” does not yet tell me how you understand the ontological status of Adam and Eve in Eden.

When you describe Eden as an ancient sacred space, how do you understand the reality to which the narrative refers?

Do you think your view fits one of the three possibilities I sketched, some combination of them, or a different possibility altogether?

More specifically, what in your view belongs to the real embodied existence of Adam and Eve in Eden, and what belongs to the imagistic or theological language through which that reality is expressed?

There is one part of this picture that I would especially like to understand more clearly.

If Adam and Eve are the first two bearers of rational souls within a larger biological population, what happens as their descendants begin to have children with members of that surrounding population?

For example, if one parent is genealogically descended from Adam and Eve and the other is not, would the child, in your model, receive a rational soul and therefore count as a full metaphysical human? Is one Adamic line of descent sufficient?

And if so, what exactly is the significance of that genealogical connection in your model?

I am also interested in how this connects with the Fall. Since each individual rational soul is immediately created by God rather than produced by the parents, how do you understand the relation between that newly created soul and the deprivation or loss of the original gifts that begins with Adam and Eve?

I am not asking for a physical mechanism. I am trying to understand where, in your model, the continuity between Adam and Eve and later ensouled human beings is located, and how the fallen condition belongs to that continuity.

It doesn’t exclude Paul’s thoughts, it illuminates them.

Which fits perfectly with a household/heritage understanding.

Are those necessarily mutually exclusive?

Yes – and others including Mackie and Heiser.

Excellent question!

After borrowing my wife’s Greek New Testament and exercising my extremely weak Greek muscles, I retract the claim that Luke says Joseph is “the son of Heli.”

The short version: Luke basically says “Jesus the (presumed) son of Joseph” for the first link but “Joseph whose father was Heli whose father was Matthat” for all the rest of the links. His way of linking Jesus to Joseph marks the gender of the preceding name, while his way of linking all the rest marks the gender of the following name. This leads to Joseph’s gender not being marked.

Now, more detail. Starting off the genealogy, Luke says that Jesus is ὢν υἱός, or “being the son.” This marks Jesus as male. But this is the one and only time in the list that Luke uses the word huios or “son.” For the rest, Luke simply connects the names with the definite article.

Greek’s definite article (what in English is simply the word “the”) is something else. It’s typically the first thing seminary students learn about Greek, and it’s probably a common reason for dropping the course. The Greek “the” can be masculine, feminine or neuter, but that’s not it. It can be singular or plural. And it can also have several cases – nominative, accusative, genitive, etc. Each combination of gender, number and case has its own form (well, with some sharing). So when Luke connects names in the genealogy, he uses τοῦ: the definite article in its singular, masculine, genitive form. Instead of simply “the,” that makes it mean basically “of the,” and it indicates that the noun to follow is singular and masculine.

All this means that one could argue that Luke went out of his way to not specify Joseph’s gender. He says something like “Jesus was the presumed son of Joseph, of the man Heli, of the man Matthat … of the man Adam, of the man God.” (Now obviously things get a bit hairy at the end, and it’s worth noting that the masculine is also the default typically used whenever gender is mixed or more complex than simply female, while the singular also gets used for uncountable and collective nouns such as “humanity” and “seed.” So the definite article’s meaning is not quite so precise as “the man,” which is good news for when it’s placed before God – or Adam!)

This does open up the possibility that by writing that Jesus is the presumed son of Joseph, he expects us to know that he’s really the son of Mary. And Mary’s father, perhaps, is Heli. While this is very subtle to us today, some of his original readers would presumably have known whether Heli was Joseph’s or Mary’s father. If they knew Heli was Mary’s father, Luke’s redirection from Joseph to Mary would have been quite clear to them.

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You also put the broader point very succinctly:

I would be very interested in how you apply that distinction to the immediate creation of each individual rational soul.

Where, in your causal picture, does that act belong?

Since, on your view, physical generation cannot produce the immaterial rational soul, but the rational soul is nevertheless the form of the human body, do you understand God’s immediate creation of each soul as an act “beyond that normal order” in the sense you describe here?

Or is the immediate creation of rational souls itself part of the normal order by which God ordinarily brings human persons into existence?

Or would you formulate the relation differently?

I am asking because I would like to understand your own causal architecture before comparing it with mine.

I chose recent ancestors meaning 6,000 to 10,000 years ago consistent with the Biblical text.

We are all descended from them (as in we have an inheritance from them) but to insist on genetic inheritance is to exaggerate the importance of the genetic inheritance and the body.

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That is a very good question that requires unpacking terms and using them very very meticulously which I certainly don’t always do. It also comes with a hylomorphic type substance view of the world. Let me try to explain.

If I say a miracle is an event “beyond the normal order” this means God produces an effect that is outside of or contrary to the natural tendencies and ends of created things. For example it is not the natural tendency of a human limb to regrow or for humans to come back from the dead. These would be miracles in that sense.

Given a soul is immaterial, efficient and material causes and any pure physicalism or human generation will not result in a soul in and of itself. This again is due to the principle of proportionate causality. But ensouled humans are very much a part of the natural order of things. The soul is a direct divine act, but it is also part of the normal, natural course of the world (I do not simply mean physical nature by this). We don’t see souls as bypassing the natural order and are not therefore miracles proper. But to most modern audiences, a direct act by God is often seen as a miracle especially since God through nature is not the predominant model.

Human nature requires a form that only God can directly supply. But humans are genuine secondary causes. God’s act of infusing the soul is baked into the standard operating procedure of the cosmos. The fancy term is dispositive causality but this gets at the edges of my philosophical comfort zone. Parents prepare the matter, God infuses the form. To moderns steeped in a naturalistic or deistic thinking, this is a “miracle” but not to a Thomist since humans are not beyond the normal order but how God regularly does things. Infusing souls is a regularly occurring divine act.

Vinnie

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I think the first two are one transition. They seem to come together. Based on the Biblical text I would lean towards three being in there as well.

Whether God created Adam and Eve de novo or infused souls I cannot say for sure. He certainly could have done either and both are possible.

I might see evolution in the same manner I see human reproduction. Just as God infuses a soul at conception in my view, at a specific moment in the fullness of time, biological matter reached the appropriate disposition for God to infuse souls. God selected two hominids and infused them with rational souls. Evolution prepared the matter just as human sex leads to a new offspring (preparing the matter) and God did the infusing. This could be another example of dispositive causation.

I don’t know fully. Only that they are physicality compatible and can reproduce. I suspect God makes souls for any genealogical offspring of Adam and Eve. He could make them for everyone but that doesn’t reconcile well with my view of Paul since original sin seems to pass through generation and comes from one man.

The loss of preternatural gifts is through generation. Since I am pressed for time at the moment, here is an analogy Edward Feser uses:

You might compare the situation to that of a landowner who has sold an unimproved parcel of land to a certain family – which, just to be cute, we’ll call the Adams family. In allowing the Adamses to take possession of the parcel, he’s given them everything he owed them. But suppose he offers to throw in, for free, something extra – to plant on the land a vineyard using the finest quality vines, whose fruit will make possible the best wine. This is something that all the descendents of the original Adamses who bought the land will profit from. But the landowner makes the offer only conditionally. He wants to see how Mr. and Mrs. Adams are going to handle things before turning the vineyard over to the Adams family as a whole, including the many descendents who are not likely to do any better with the vines than their ancestors are. So if Mr. and Mrs. Adams do well with the first vines planted, they and their descendents will get to keep them and reap the benefits. If not, the landowner will tear them out and leave the Adamses and their descendents with only the original unimproved parcel, which is all they were owed in the first place.

Now suppose that Mr. and Mrs. Adams botch things up, and the landowner removes the vineyard. The fault is entirely theirs, but all their descendents necessarily suffer the penalty just as much as they do, just by virtue of being Adamses. Yet it is not a positive harm that is inflicted on them, but rather the loss of a benefit they were not entitled to but nevertheless would have received if not for the actions of their ancestors.

Physical generation is a part of the process and this allows me to reconcile what Paul says with external knowledge.

Can you point me to the comment with the three possibilities? I’ll answer after that. I see Eden as a miraculous place where Adam and Eve would not have died. But knowing what specifically is history and what is myth in the narrative is quite difficult in some places.

Vinnie

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Vinnie, your last replies have helped me understand your position much more clearly. I think this may be a good point for me to lay out my own model more fully, rather than continue asking you questions one by one.

My starting theological premise is simple. The Creator is the source of the being of the whole created order, and everything that exists continues to exist because He gives and sustains its being. Natural causes are therefore real causes operating within a created order that is continuously sustained by the Creator.

At the same time, I fully accept the real cosmic, geological, biological, and evolutionary history of the world. Stars really form through natural processes. Life genuinely evolves. Homo sapiens has a population-level evolutionary history.

I call this position Evolutionary-Phase Theism (EPT).

“Evolutionary” refers to the real evolutionary history of creation; “phase” refers to the natural unfolding of possibilities once they have become available within the created order.

The central distinction is between an Act and a phase.

An Act of Creation is a proposed root-level threshold at which a new range of what is genuinely attainable becomes available. A phase is the subsequent natural unfolding of what has already become attainable. The Act does not replace natural causation, and a new phase does not abolish the previous ones. The structure is cumulative or nested: physical order continues within living order, biological embodiment continues within personal life, and so on.

The Act itself is not something that science observes. What science can observe and reconstruct are structures, processes, histories, and consequences. Calling a particular root-level threshold an Act of Creation is a philosophical and theological interpretation of that threshold, not the addition of another physical cause beside the natural ones.

I relate the seven creation days of Genesis to seven such Acts. For the first six, I propose working correspondences with root-level transitions or conditions in the real history of the world reconstructed by science. The seventh has a somewhat different, completion-oriented status. The fuller map is in Seven Acts of Creation, if you are interested.

It may help if I show you one example of how I approach the language of Genesis.

I receive Genesis as Revelation. But Revelation, as I understand it, is not a textbook of physics, cosmology, geology, biology, or evolutionary theory. It speaks through human language and through images available to human experience.

So imagistic language does not mean fictional language.

In another discussion I tried a deliberately rough conceptual paraphrase of Genesis 1:1–5 using modern physical vocabulary:

“In the beginning God created the universe. The universe was formless and empty; darkness was over the deep, and the Spirit of God moved over an undifferentiated high-energy medium. And God said, ‘Let there be the photon,’ and there was light. God saw that the light was good and separated the light from the darkness. And there was evening, and there was morning: the first day.”

I am obviously not claiming that the ancient author knew about photons, plasma, or modern cosmology, nor that this is the uniquely correct translation of the imagery. The point of the exercise is narrower: changing the conceptual vocabulary does not necessarily destroy the referent.

In the current form of EPT, the First Act itself is actually deeper than “the appearance of the photon.” Its core is the gift of being and distinguishability, and the opening of the possibility of physical history. Physical light is one expression within the physical order that follows.

This general approach becomes especially important when I reach the Sixth Act.

Up to that point I accept the evolutionary history of life, including the natural history of sentience. I do not place a separate Act at the first appearance of subjective experience. Animals may perceive, feel pain, remember, learn, and form attachments as part of the natural-emergent history of sentient life and nervous organization.

The Sixth Act concerns a different kind of novelty: the personal subject.

By this I mean a mode of being in which a lived history can belong to one and the same “I” as its biography; an action can belong to it as its deed; an obligation can bind it as its own obligation; and a relation with the Creator can become a free personal response.

I do not mean that one additional cognitive module is simply added on top of an already functioning animal mind. Memory, perception, emotion, learning, sociality, and embodied action remain part of the natural history of the organism. The proposal is rather that these already existing capacities enter a new kind of subject-level unity: they become the capacities of one personal “I” across a continuing biography.

This is why, in my model, the first persons are not the first Homo sapiens and not the first sentient beings.

And this brings me to the point where my hypothesis differs from the Thomistic account you have been describing.

I understand the Thomistic reasoning as you have presented it: the rational soul is immaterial; physical generation cannot be its sufficient efficient cause; therefore each rational soul is immediately created by God.

I also understand from your replies that, in your framework, this immediate divine act is not a miracle in the strict sense. It belongs to the ordinary order by which human beings come into existence: human generation disposes the matter, while God directly supplies the rational soul as its form.

That, by itself, gives me no reason simply to reject the Thomistic account.

What gives me pause is something narrower. I do not see the Genesis narrative itself making this repeated causal architecture explicit. Adam’s origin is narrated in a distinctive way: dust and the breath of life. Eve’s origin is narrated differently — she comes from Adam. Cain, Abel, Seth, and later human beings then enter the narrative through birth and genealogical continuation, and I do not see the text itself indicating that a new act of immediate soul-creation occurs at each birth.

I understand that your case for the immediate creation of each rational soul does not rest on Genesis alone. You have explicitly appealed to the immateriality of the rational soul, the principle of proportionate causality, and the Catholic rejection of traducianism.

My point is therefore not that Genesis disproves the Thomistic account. It is only that I do not see Genesis itself requiring this particular repeated architecture. That leaves me open to asking whether another metaphysical account can preserve the theological requirements of the text.

That is where my own Edenic hypothesis begins.

Before the trilemma, there is one route I set aside. One could read the Eden account as wholly non-historical or purely parabolic, without a real Edenic event behind it.

I receive Genesis as Revelation, but I do not mean by this that Revelation must always take the form of a literal physical report. In this particular case, however, my reading of the wider biblical witness leads me to take the Fall and the Adamic root of the later human condition as having a real referent, even if Genesis presents that reality through image-mediated language.

Among readings that preserve a real Edenic referent, I see three main possibilities.

The first is to read Eden as an ordinary earthly historical setting containing two ordinary biological human beings.

But then the same scene also contains the formation from dust and breath, the woman coming from the man’s side, the tree of life, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the speaking serpent, God “walking” in the garden, death “in the day” of eating, already sighted people whose eyes are “opened,” and an expulsion that radically changes their condition.

None of those details by itself proves that Eden was a different mode of existence. Taken together, however, they make me hesitate to read the scene as ordinary terrestrial biological life plus a few isolated figurative details.

The second possibility is a mixed reading: Adam and Eve are ordinary terrestrial biological human beings, while some surrounding elements are read figuratively or symbolically.

I think such a reading is certainly possible. My concern is narrower. Without some governing principle, the reader can decide element by element which parts are straightforward description and which are images, and then treat the resulting selection as though it were simply given by the text.

Why is Adam’s biological existence straightforwardly historical while his formation from dust may be figurative? Why is Eve an ordinary biological woman while her origin from the man’s side need not be biological? Why is the Fall real while the fruit may be an image? What tells us where one register ends and the other begins?

The third possibility is the one I explore.

I read the Eden account as a whole, up to and including the expulsion, in a unified image-mediated register.

That does not make Eden fictional.

The relation with the Creator is real.

The command is real.

Freedom is real.

The possibility of obedience and disobedience is real.

The Fall is real.

The loss of the former immediacy of relation with the Creator is real.

But I do not assume that an earthly image must be read as a direct description of an earthly mode of existence.

In fact, I suspect that imagery is necessary precisely because we do not possess a direct human vocabulary or conceptual apparatus for describing such a mode of created existence.

So before the transition into ordinary terrestrial human history, I do not picture Adam and Eve as two already existing Homo sapiens standing beside one another in a geographical garden.

I propose one created Edenic personal ground.

Within that one ground there are two real distinctions, which I call the Adamic and Eveic distinctions. They are real, but at this stage they are not yet two persons, two souls, two biological individuals, or two independently existing subjects. I also do not identify them with male and female biological sex, or with active and receptive principles. Their exact metaphysical character remains open.

For the model, the important claim is that unity comes first.

That is why the image of the woman coming from the man is so interesting to me. I do not read it as a surgical procedure performed on a male biological body. I read it as potentially preserving a deeper structure: the human personal lineage does not begin from two independent personal sources. Difference emerges within a prior unity.

There may even be a weak analogy to this in our own inner life. One and the same “I” can contain real tension, competing motives, inner dialogue, and even something like negotiation between different impulses without becoming several persons.

I am not identifying that psychological fact with the Adamic and Eveic distinctions. It proves nothing about Eden. It only shows that real internal differentiation does not, by itself, require a plurality of personal subjects.

Here I should clarify the metaphor of the seal, because I think it can easily mislead.

The seal is not a spiritual object, instrument, or metaphysical stamp stored somewhere and waiting for someone to press it onto later people.

The Edenic personal ground is not an inert thing. It is a personal reality capable of relation with the Creator, freedom, and therefore obedience or disobedience. The Edenic rupture belongs to that personal reality; it is not something done to an object by an external operator.

The seal metaphor will matter later only in describing the completeness of the personal imprint.

This also shapes how I read the images themselves.

Dust expresses creatureliness: the personal ground is created and is not an emanation of the divine nature.

The divine breath expresses the gift of personal being and personal relation with the Creator, rather than the first appearance of subjective experience as a psychological mechanism.

The garden expresses the immediacy of that relation with the Creator.

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil expresses a real divinely established boundary.

The fruit expresses the attempt to claim for oneself the authority to determine good and evil independently of the Source.

The serpent expresses temptation toward that self-separation.

The Fall is a real free rupture of the relation with the Creator.

The expulsion expresses the loss of the former immediacy of that relation and the transition into ordinary terrestrial history — limitation, labor, and bodily mortality.

These are interpretive proposals within the model, not claims that I have reconstructed the underlying metaphysical reality. I leave the exact referent of the tree of life especially open.

There is also one related point about mortality. In the wider model, the individual human soul — what I describe as the complete personal imprint — is the metaphysical ground of the continuity of personal identity through bodily death and toward resurrection.

So when I say that this personal reality is creaturely, I do not mean that it is a piece of divinity or that it exists by its own necessity. But neither do I mean that personal identity is simply annihilated when the biological body dies. Its continued existence would itself be a gift continuously sustained by the Creator.

At the same time, the human being is not simply a soul temporarily occupying a body. Human earthly life is genuinely embodied, which is why resurrection remains essential rather than becoming unnecessary once one speaks of the soul.

Then comes the transition into ordinary earthly history.

The one Edenic personal ground is not divided into two personal portions. Instead, two genuinely independent embodied persons arise: the earthly Adam and Eve.

Each has a distinct body, empirical perspective, memory and biography, freedom and responsibility. Their distinctness is real.

And yet each bears a complete personal imprint of the same original personal ground, including the fullness of both its Adamic and Eveic distinctions. Adam does not bear an “Adamic half” and Eve an “Eveic half.”

Here “complete imprint” names a relation of completeness, not a stamping mechanism or a division of some substance: the new person bears no mere fragment or separated portion of the original personal ground.

These earthly Adam and Eve are the first two embodied persons of the human personal lineage. They arise within a wider Homo sapiens population that already has a real evolutionary history.

From them the personal lineage continues genealogically through that wider population.

The working anthropological postulate of the model is that if at least one parent already belongs to the human personal line, the child also belongs to that line and bears a complete personal imprint.

I do not know why genealogical relation should be the condition of this continuation. I am not claiming a genetic mechanism, a hidden physical field, a store of memory, an unknown energy, or a second neurological process. The model names the relation; it does not pretend to reconstruct its metaphysical mechanism.

And I am not claiming that this construction is proven, or that it is the uniquely correct reading of Genesis.

It is a working philosophical and theological hypothesis — my attempt to hold together Revelation, a real Adam and Eve, a real Fall, the population-level evolutionary history of Homo sapiens, and a genuine novelty of the human personal mode of being.

Now that I have laid out the architecture more fully, I would be very interested in where you see its most vulnerable point.

If there is a place where you think the model becomes metaphysically incoherent, conflicts with something Revelation actually requires, or simply cannot do the explanatory work I am asking it to do, I would be very grateful if you pointed to that place.

That kind of criticism would be much more valuable to me than agreement that the model sounds plausible.