Do you have any data showcasing that every single person diagnosed with it are violent evil people? Can you find any links by psychologists or psychiatrists that state differently from your opinion?
I donāt see any demonizing going on, but only an accurate description of an instance of psychopathic behavior. But none of that has anything whatsoever to do with the cause of that behavior. There is no doubt whatsoever that this behavior is the very definition of evil: pursuing ones desires at the expense of the well being of other people. But some of us know better than to preempt the right of God to make judgements of other people. It simply isnāt our place because we do not have all the facts. When it is about our own choices and actions, that is a different matter, we must make judgements in that case.
That God can make accurate judgements follows from His omniscience. Whether salvation is about judgement is a completely different question. The Bible uses more than one metaphor to explain this. One is the judicial metaphor (saying God judges us) and another is the medical metaphor (saying Jesus saves us). Such metaphors are used because neither is precisely accurate but both have some limited applicability. I reject both extremes of using one of the metaphors exclusively and I see this as an example of excessive willfulness. Even in medicine, because doctors are trying to save people who have free will and make their own choices, they are severely limited in what they can do. Likewise in a court of law, good judges take into account all sorts of mitigating factors from such things as diminished capacity. I refuse both those who make free will of no account and those who make free will everything in order to push one of these ideas/metaphors to an extreme. I am tempted to use well known names of contempt for these extremists (such as used by Jesus and others) but I will refrain from that and simply recommend greater moderation.
This video is fascinating! Watching this guy carry skepticism and reasoning out so systematical to where he finally realizes it applies to himself is a great deal like my own thinking growing up, which I have frequently called taking skepticism to the point of becoming skeptical of skepticism itself. I donāt know for sure that I was ever a psychopath, but it is possible that I could have been borderline or been on the verge of becoming so at one time. There was a time when I had an experience of all my emotions waking up for the first time at around the age of 14, as if they had all been asleep for most of my life. However, his rather imaginative thinking that he had powers over the world as well as the paranoid tendencies of thinking animals or people were trying to control him, were not things I experienced, so perhaps those are crucial element of psychopathology which I did not have. I donāt see anything rational about those and I donāt think I ever would have. But I was definitely very much of a āhead caseā feeling that I was trapped in chains of logic ā perhaps that is why finally I rebelled again everything being logic and science exclusively. And then there was the simple fact that I was never dismissive of aspects of the world (like God and morality) which I didnāt understand, but was more determined to seek comprehension of them. It makes me wonder if the choices we make about how we are going to think may play a greater role in these phenomenon that some might assume.
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No one has that sort of data. My opinion comes from my experience of them, family and husband and many others that have been brought around me for various reasons. I havenāt seen one that is not harmful. The violence is not done directly through physical means for the vast majority of them. The ones that are in jails are the tiny minority, who have done obvious violent crimes.
You want to see peer reviewed papers by psychiatrists about psychopaths so that you can believe who they are. But, even if such data existed, how believable is it given that the psychiatrists have a track record for making up the science. Heck the chemical imbalances in the brain causes mental illness ātheoryā is considered by most GPs a well accepted theory and yet it is total fiction. When they were brought to task they said āwe never said there was any scienceā.
In fact you only need to look at the psychiatric profession as whole, not individuals of course because they vary. But as a whole they act like psychopaths. They trash a patientās life issues, made up the science, taken groups of symptoms and voted disorders into existence, never rely on any medical tests, all diagnosis are subjective āwe reckon blah blahā and then they prescribe chemical sledgehammers. Can you do this with a conscience? It took Dr. Peter Breggin M.D., a psychiatrist, a very good person bless his heart, to put an end to the lobotomies as treatment. Attacking a personās brain with an ice pick through the eye sockets. I ask you, can this possibly be humane?
No itās not humane to force lobotomies onto people.
However thatās not the issue. The issue is thinking your sole experience outweighs that of what the data says. Data , not just from one but many, from the entire science , states that not all, or even most, are violent and cruel. I posted a link stating that. Itās in other peopleās hands to find support for their thoughts.
I am sorry that you met a wicked man. I hope he has been dealt with if he does not repent and reaps what he sowed. I am withdrawing from the conversation though. I hope that youāre week goes well and that youāre able to find peace and strength in God.
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The majority are not violent, but almost all psychopaths are cruel. Think about the incurable bullies in school, male and female. They take pleasure in inflicting verbal and emotional pain on their victims. Itās one of the early signs of a problem. Psychopathy can manifest in various forms and anti-social behaviors, not all of them violent. Substance abuse and sexual deviancy are common. Most female sex workers are psychopathic, and an FBI study showed 75% of offenders in the sex-trafficking business were psychopaths. They also are more likely to commit property crimes and computer crimes, such as hacking, identity theft, and inventing viruses.
I grant you that psychopathy is a spectrum, like autism, and not all are serial killers in waiting. I think our different perspectives come from our different contexts and experiences. My experience is mainly with incarcerated juveniles, and the younger they are (as young as 10), the more likely they are to have serious problems. Your experience is mainly with adults. I want you to recognize the inherent dangers, and you want me to show a bit more grace. Hereās a really good article that describes the situation:
Yes and no. āCarlā in the article above is an interesting case.
After two stints at Mendota, he was released just before his 18th birthday, got married, and at age 20 was arrested for beating up a police officer. In prison, he wrote a suicide note, fashioned a makeshift noose, and was put on suicide watch in solitary confinement. While there, he began reading the Bible and fasting, and one day, he says, āsomething very powerful shifted.ā He began to believe in God. Carl acknowledges that his lifestyle falls far short of the Christian ideal. But he still attends church every week, and he credits Mendota with paving the way for his conversion.
After talking with Carl, I begin to see him as a remarkable success story. āWithout [Mendota] and Jesus,ā he tells me, āI would have been a Manson-, Bundy-, Dahmer-, or Berkowitz-type of criminal.ā Sure, his fascination with the morbid is a little creepy. Yet here he is, now remarried, the father of a 1-year-old son he adores, with a flourishing business. After our phone interview, I decide to meet him in person. I want to witness his redemption for myself.
The night before Iām scheduled to fly to Los Angeles, I receive a frantic email from Carlās wife. Carl is in police custody. His wife tells me that Carl considers himself polyamorous, and had invited one of his girlfriends over to their apartment. (This woman denies ever being romantically involved with Carl.) They were playing with the baby when his wife returned. She was furious, and grabbed their son. Carl responded by pulling her hair, snatching the baby out of her arms, and taking her phone to prevent her from calling the police. She called from a neighborās house instead. (Carl says he grabbed the baby to protect him.) Three misdemeanor chargesāspousal battery, abandonment and neglect of a child, and intimidation of a witnessāand the psychopath who made good is now in jail.
Carl is a tough man to be married to. His wife says heās funny and charming and a good listener, but he sometimes loses interest in the funeral business, leaving most of the work to her. He brings other women home for sex, even when sheās there. And while heās never seriously beaten her up, he has slapped her. āHe would say sorry, but I donāt know if he was upset or not,ā she tells me.
āSo you wondered if he felt genuine remorse?ā
āHonestly, Iām at a point where I donāt really care anymore. I just want my son and myself to be safe.ā
So is it safe to say that not all psychopaths are violent, criminals, or cruel? That some, despite being anti social and lacking strong sympathetic drives still recognize right or wrong through religious and societal norms and so they practice snd choose to be disciplined in their actions and thoughts pursuing righteousness? Or are they all cruel, without exception, choosing wickedness even if itās subtle?
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Perhaps like those on another spectrum who must learn body language by rote in the absence of working empathy, psychopaths too must learn by rote how to behave in a way that permits them to have more satisfying relations?
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I find our perception of a psychopath very interesting. Does it jive with the theory of some Christians that the only reason we do things with any sort of empathy for others is because of the fear of Godās retribution? In some ways that seems like projection. I have heard some pastors claim we all have base desires to cheat, steal, etc, when I (and many others) have no understanding of what theyāre talking about. We all have strugglesā¦diiferent ways for each of us. As a society, to function with laws, we all do need some sort of discipline in order to understand what we need to do. . Is, in some cases, faith or religion with a deity that provides punishment and reward part of our societyās necessary guidelines to avoid our own psychopathic tendencies?
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One thing that has always seemed a bit interesting to me is how people tend to base so much off of emotions and sympathy in relationship to being good. The majority of mankind has fully functional brains yet they have never bothered to really learn emotional intelligence. The majority base their goodness it seems off of some sort of standard. A clean cut scrawny man may have a better chance being picked up while hitchhiking verses a larger overweight man with a large beard and tattoos. If someone is hurting and needs a hug that is civilized looking they are more likely to get it than a toothless homeless man even if the one guy is a farm worker and stinky verses the homeless man not having taken a bath for two weeks. I understand people are more physical with those they know snd care about but Iām talking about the level of physical touch with strangers seems based off of some standard. Though we live in a world where the majority of people have working feelings we have so much death through societal neglect. Same as how most people in prison are not void of emotions. Yet people who are considered psychopathic making up almost nothing statistically are often the ones being scrutinized or engaged with as if a exotic animal on show.
I see the manipulation thing all the time. Itās amusing because the most manipulative people I meet have working emotions. Almost everyone throughout their life manipulative others, even if itās through butt kissing or a guy being kind to a woman at work because he has a crush on her and want to do good things for her to help develop a relationship wi to her and women do the same.
But thoughts deemed psychopaths always have this manipulative agenda wrapped on them. Sure, I think much of it is based off of highly broadcast selections of psychopaths. There are definitely some that do it. I think often itās more like despite working on doing good, snd being aware, opportunity presents itself and the addiction takes over. They suddenly feel like a predator, fantasizing about whatever it is they feel clawing at them from the inside, and the adrenaline and heart pumping and anticipation of a possibility kicks in and they cave in to it. Reminds me of how vampires are often portrayed. One of the films where a vampire , despite always wanting blood, pushes back the urges for the woman they love. They are trying to be polite and loving and give them some roses and the thorn cuts their loverās finger and suddenly all they hear is the heart pulsating blood throughout the body and suddenly itās like all they see is cattle and bloodlust takes over and then if they lack displace, they mess up and almost immediately as soon as the tension is gone they wish they did not do it. But they were not trying to manipulate the woman they love into a house by themself.
But if they lack discipline, they should be arrested nonetheless if they are harming others. By no means would I ever justify evil or malicious manipulative processes. But on the other side of the coin, I think that itās the persons actions that ultimately should determine their threat and not a false climatic buildup of fear casting the other into this monstrous state based on films snd the actions of a few infamous out of the many who never hurt others snd even if 9/10 are cruel ( I doubt itās anywhere near that number I just made up ) it does not change the 1/10 that refrain from wickedness.
I was thinking about a position we donāt often hear argued here, that you canāt have rational morality at all without God. Iām thinking of Craigās ācanāt get an ought from an isā argument. But I always think rule following is the lowest form of morality. If one canāt appreciate the reason to act kindly or avoid cruelty without the threat of paying larger eternal price later ā¦ thatās better than nothing but it isnāt really very praise worthy. I think I hear you saying something similar here.
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Perhaps the problem is speaking of psychopaths as if they were a species or something well defined. In reality, it is a poorly defined deviation from certain personality norms ā poorly defined in the sense that we have quite a few different definitions. Some of the definition are more simple and well defined than others, but even in those cases I donāt know that they are simply black and white without shade of gray.
One definition I am seeing in Wikipedia points to three personality traits: high self confidence, poor impulse control, and lack of empathy. To be sure a combination of all three look like a recipe for disaster. I suppose that @SkovandOfMitaze may be equating it with the last of these and sees other ways in which that particular lack might be compensated for.
I do wonder, however, how one can be identified as a psychopath, if there is none of the behavior which is indicative, i.e. causing harm to others with practically no reason for doing so.
Often itās studies done on teens and then checked back on later in life. Some are random people , women and men, come in for counseling because they feel out of touch and just want to be able to be a good spouse or partner and over time get tested. Yet these people never did anything any worse than anyone else. Or in the case of kids, they get tested as kids often for bad behavior and then later on in life are checked up on and are full functioning humans.
What I was saying is that I disagree with painting all people who test high for it as being evil, violent, or cruel or even worse, are beyond the hope of restoration and redemption. Iām under the impression that itās even debated if psychopaths are truly incapable of emotions. When one starts to show emotional intelligence and feelings itās just classified as a mistake on one of the tests. It or ores the abilities for humans to change for the better snd develop more as a person in the image of Christ.
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Have to realize though thatās not the driving case. There are many interpretations of hell. Iām not singular in my belief that the body and soul is destroyed in hell. Youāre not tortured for eternity. You donāt get to go to heaven. If you choose to abide in Christ you get eternal life and if not, you die and dont receive eternal life. Annihilationism is a common belief. People donāt always do good out of fear but because they realize that God is a loving God and they want to extend that love to their neighbors.
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As long as we are acting toward others out of regard for the consequences to ourselves, thatās lower on moral ladder in my opinion. As a parent, a child who will only respond to threats and promises isnāt as pleasing as one who who acts out of genuine respect for others. So no matter how horrible hell is or how wonderful heaven may be, a preoccupation with it doesnāt seem like the best we can do from my perspective.
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I agree.
What I said was that plenty of people choose to do good , not out of fear of hell, but choose to do good because they see the goodness God does and wants to express that love to their neighbors. Even if heaven and hell did not exist, they would want to love their neighbors as God loved them.
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Would agreeā¦it seems evident those without God belief often out perform those with it in the empathy and works department.
Sorry, I didnāt mean to imply you held that opinion.
Could be. In my personal experience the kindest people I know are all Christians. Most Christians I know donāt do good just for the sake of heaven and hell. Sure they want to avoid hell and they want to go to heaven, and sometimes when they are angry or something they may not act out because of their faith, but for the most part they do good because they are good. They enjoy goodness. They hate evil.
Itās like with my niece. She knows every week if she can tell me one new flower, what color itās flowers are and season it blooms, how many petals it has, and if itās leaves are alternative, whorled, or opposite and if itās sun or shade I will take her for some snacks. Sheās 11. She does it for the treat, but she also does it because she likes nature. My passion for nature inspired passion for nature in her. She often tells me random facts about animals or insects. She bought a bird book all on her own. I sometimes visit her and sheās outside unaware Iām coming with other little girls and boys telling them about flowers or building stick homes for toads.
So she, just like Christians, are doing good not solely for the reward, but because they are also passionate for it as well. Itās not a either or thing.
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Why do I get the impression you didnāt even look at the article I linked? āCarlā went to church every week, yet his behavior at home was different. Unless you live with someone 24-7 and also know their thoughts, you shouldnāt be so confident in what they choose to tell you and what little you see.
In any case, itās safe to say that not all psychopaths are violent or criminals, but they lack empathy and so are cruel by definition. If you know a psychopath who is empathetic and never cruel, they probably were misdiagnosed or lied about their diagnosis. Cruelty isnāt always expressed physically, nor is it always directed against everyone in their path. Psychopaths target people who are weak and easily manipulated. Unless I miss my guess, you donāt fit either category. Additionally, you are more of a counselor or mentor figure to those you know. Not all sex offenders are psychopaths, but they share certain characteristics. They are used to leading double lives. They understand societal and religious norms (right and wrong behavior) and can outwardly conform to the rules when under observation. Ask any probation officer, and theyāll tell you that sex offenders are model probationers. Psychopaths are similar. They can be gregarious and charming. They can be business owners and churchgoers. They can say and do the right things, yet they can lead secret, double lives where the rules donāt apply.
Enough of my blather. Hereās a paragraph from the textbook Moral Psychology that defines the disorder and gives an example of what Iāve been saying:
As you can see from the above and the Atlantic article that I originally linked, psychopathy is not a fear based on films or the actions of a few infamous killers. It is a rare disorder, but 1/4 of violent offenders in prison are psychopaths, and the diagnosis should never be taken lightly. Iām not trying to guess about the salvation of the 1/10 (or however many) who honestly struggle with the condition. Theyāll probably stand ahead of me in St. Peterās line, considering the hand they were dealt. In the meantime, hope for their salvation, but donāt let your guard down.
Keep doing Godās work. Just donāt put your own or anyone elseās safety at risk. Thatās about all Iāve got to say.