What about failed prophesies continued

There was once a topic on this forum that asked the question, what about failed prophesies in the Bible? I’ve been studying this topic lately reading all that I can on the subject including the books of the prophets in the Old Testament themselves. I still am not completely sure on the answer to all of it but when tackling the question I think that one needs to understand the context of prophesy in Ancient Israel and the Ancient Near East. So, I asked the AI Gemini about it and here was the answer.

Question: There are many Old Testament prophecies that seem to have failed. Why did the ancient Israelites seeing this not lose faith in their prophets and put their writings into their holy books?

Answer: The question of “failed prophecies” in the Old Testament is a complex one, and the fact that ancient Israelites continued to preserve and revere these texts suggests a nuanced understanding of prophecy that differs from a modern, hyper-literal approach. Here are several reasons why ancient Israelites likely didn’t lose faith:

1. Different Understanding of Prophecy:

  • Conditional Nature: Many prophecies were likely understood as conditional, meaning their fulfillment depended on the people’s obedience or repentance. The classic example is Jonah’s prophecy against Nineveh: God threatened destruction, but when the city repented, He relented (Jonah 3). This demonstrated God’s desire for reconciliation, not just absolute, predetermined outcomes.
  • Forthtelling vs. Foretelling: Prophets often acted as “forthtellers” – speaking God’s word to the present situation, calling for righteousness and warning of consequences for disobedience. While they sometimes foretold future events, their primary role was often to guide and instruct the people in their current ethical and spiritual walk.
  • Symbolic and Figurative Language: Much prophetic language is highly poetic, symbolic, and metaphorical. Ancient audiences would have been accustomed to interpreting such language, rather than expecting a strictly literal fulfillment of every detail. For example, descriptions of cosmic upheaval might have signified major political or social changes, not necessarily literal astronomical events.
  • Already/Not Yet Fulfillment: Some prophecies may have had multiple layers of fulfillment – a partial fulfillment in the immediate historical context and a more complete or ultimate fulfillment in a distant future (e.g., the “end times” or the Messianic era). This allows for prophecies to be seen as continuously unfolding rather than simply “failed” if they didn’t fully materialize in one specific historical moment.

2. Emphasis on God’s Character and Purpose:

  • God’s Sovereignty and Justice: Even when prophecies of judgment seemed unfulfilled or delayed, the Israelites understood this in terms of God’s patience and desire for repentance. Conversely, if prophecies of blessing were delayed, it might be attributed to their own ongoing disobedience or God’s timing. The emphasis was on God’s character as just, merciful, and sovereign, rather than on the prophet’s perfect predictive accuracy as the sole measure of divine truth.
  • Covenant Relationship: Prophecy was deeply embedded in the concept of God’s covenant with Israel. The prophecies served to remind the people of their obligations and God’s faithfulness to His promises, even if those promises had conditions or involved periods of discipline.

3. Historical Context and Delayed Fulfillment:

  • Long-Term Scope: Many prophecies, especially those concerning the Messiah, the restoration of Israel, or the ultimate future, were understood to have a very long-term scope. The ancient Israelites likely didn’t expect all prophecies to be fulfilled within a single generation or even a few centuries.
  • Partial Fulfillment: Some prophecies might have seen partial or symbolic fulfillment, which reinforced faith in the overall message, even if a complete, literal fulfillment was still awaited.
  • Redefinition and Reinterpretation: Over time, communities might have reinterpreted prophecies in light of new historical circumstances or theological developments. This doesn’t necessarily mean “explaining away” failures, but rather deepening their understanding of the prophecy’s true meaning and its broader implications for God’s plan.

4. Distinction Between True and False Prophets:

  • Deuteronomy 18:21-22: The Torah itself provides a criterion for distinguishing true prophets from false ones: “If a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord but the thing does not take place or prove true, it is a word that the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; do not be afraid of him.” This passage indicates that the Israelites were aware of the possibility of false prophecy and had a standard by which to judge it. However, the application of this standard was likely more nuanced than a simple pass/fail for every single prediction. A true prophet’s overall message and consistent alignment with God’s revealed will were probably more significant than isolated predictions.
  • Consistent Message: True prophets often delivered consistent messages aligned with the Mosaic Law and the covenant, even if the timing or exact details of their predictions varied.

In conclusion, the ancient Israelites’ retention of prophetic writings, even those with seemingly “unfulfilled” elements, suggests a sophisticated understanding of prophecy that allowed for conditionality, symbolism, long-term scope, and an overarching focus on God’s character and covenant faithfulness, rather than a strict adherence to every literal detail of every prediction within a limited timeframe.

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Great post Clovis…these kinds of theological historical Biblical issues are extremely important for the Christian, especially in light of the debate that rages between ANE and YEC on these forums (indicative I think of what happens in local churches as well)

A couple of thoughts that i have on this topic:

1. Why do our human minds seek out error in Biblical writings?
2. What are the exact examples of failed prophecy that are being questioned here?

For question 1

ANE casts shadows over the authenticity of the scripture account…there is simply no denying that problem.

ANE casts this shadow because it tries to explain away very obvious biblical HISTORICAL statements.

What do i mean by historical statements?

Well those are statement that introduce times, dates, places, peoples names, peoples ages, other individauls who are also historical into those same historical passages of scripture. One cannot simply ignore or explain away these things…and they do cause problems no matter what delusion the individual places oneself under in order to pretend they dont matter.

Why is question 1 even relevant?(because i can hear the naysayers already scoffing that my point above isnt relevant)…

Its relevant because its the likes of question 1 that leads us directly to question 2 and you have already made that link with your conclusion below:
[quote=“Clovis_Merovingian, post:1, topic:56702”]
In conclusion, the ancient Israelites’ retention of prophetic writings, even those with seemingly “unfulfilled” elements, suggests a sophisticated understanding of prophecy that allowed for conditionality, symbolism, long-term scope, and an overarching focus on God’s character and covenant faithfulness, rather than a strict adherence to every literal detail of every prediction within a limited timeframe.
[/quote]

For question 2

I googled “examples of failed bible prophecies” and AI returned the following:

I will not post my positions on all of these, however, there are answers that immediately come to mind in response to a few of them:

David’s kingdom - (this was is not a faiiled prophecy) it was always conditional on David and his successors maintaining allegience (if you will) to Gods wishes. Many of Davids successors did not do this, hence the captivities at the hands Nebuchadnezzar and the Persians for example

Christ’s Birth - (this was not a failed prophecy) the magi coming from the east Persia/or Babylon demonstrate that this is a false claim. We also have documented evidence outside of the Bible for Christs crucifixion…clearly the man existed, so that is absolutely not an unfulfilled prophecy. For the jew who was sure he was coming to save them from the Romans it might be, however, even Christ himself said “my kingdom is not of this world”…so the Jews are flat out wrong there.

Second Coming - i dont think we will ever be able to support the claim that this is a failed prophecy…there is no deadline given in the prophecy for when it will be fulfilled. It is conditional on one thing:

ok so heres some AI information on the Damascus example of failed prophecy:

Here is what AI returns on why the Ezekiel prophecy did not come true:


BTW for those naysayers who dont like AI…well you can add your vote on the credibility of the responses it returns…if you dont like the response and think its wrong…take a look below:

Like Obama said in the advertisement for the democratic national committees 2020 campaign “It’s going to be close. It could come down to a handful of voters just like you. So I’m asking you to bring this thing home. Leave no doubt.”


EDIT UPDATE…
I need to also expand on the answer to Question 2 above…

Why do i continue to make the claims i do about the historical accuracy of scripture such that i am YEC because of its 100% innerancy when it comes to darwinian science controversy?

Well, your conclusion higlights the problem there. You state in your conclusion:

seemingly “unfulfilled” elements, suggests a sophisticated understanding of prophecy that allowed for conditionality, symbolism, long-term scope, and an overarching focus on God’s character and covenant faithfulness, rather than a strict adherence to every literal detail of every prediction within a limited timeframe.

Ok, so this means that ultimately, the historical need for the stories of the bible are not really that important to us…because these often disagree with Darwinian Evolution timelines.

Because of the above, i have to ask the question…if that is true, then what is the bible useful for?

I have to make the observation from many posts on these forums from ANE individuals, that they basically believe that scripture is a story of morality…God leading primitave man into modern intelligent man…its a journey of moral enlightenment and intellectualism.

There are some enormous problems with the above:

  1. The Bible does not promote intellectualism and human moral reasoning as credible…it directly makes the statements that man is corruptible, and desires of the heart are usually self serving and sinful.
  2. Whether people here are willing to accept this or not, the fact according to non Christian scientists who study the human condition is categorically this…WE DO NOT NEED THE BIBLE OR GOD FOR MORALITY!

Does the wider community believe religion has had any influence on the above? Yes of course, however, what is interesting is that its usually the opposite influence to what one might expect…they very often blame religion for the cause of war! So religion is the very reason why they don’t endorse the barbarism of the Old Testament story…the claim extends also to the belief that barbarism in the Old Testament has also given license to world wars and even slavery!

So my point is, if we try to explain away the literal authenticity of the bible historical account, we are left with a book of moral reasoning…atheism is going to have a big problem with that…it doesnt need God to explain morality…Darwinian Evolution explains this just fine and it does this without the help of God!

There are individuals on these forums who quite happily claim God cant act outside of science…well if science can explain morality, for what purpose then is the guiding God who actively engages with his own creation in bible? Christ physical death is pointless because he cant actually do anything outside of science and died anyway. The idea he rose from the dead, rose up into the sky against gravity, travelled through outer space without oxygen…these are non scientific idiocies!

ANE starts to present some serious logical inconsistencies in theological belief…it genuinely becomes nonsense because of what has to be explained away. There is simply no logical way to ignore the enormous burden of problems such a position experiences. What we tend to find here are long science discussions and relatively little in the way of theological ones. Bible theology is usually not referenced much in ANE science discussions, the sources are usually external to the bible account… except by YEC interestingly enough and that should always be a red flag.

**BTW a little trivia on the notion of Evolutionary Creationism. **

Some individuals here might think that is a unique concept thought up by Biologos…the reality is, the concept seems to me to be plagiarised …because “Scientific Creationism” was penned/published by YEC years earlier (Henry Morris in 1974)…

Despite the criticism in the following reference…the date is well known (by those outside of Biologos)

Here is the reference for why i think Biologos plagiarized the concept.

So here’s what I mean about seemingly failed prophecy. One of the most significant is the city of Babylon. There are famously many prophecies about Babylon which unequivocally state that it will be utterly destroyed like Sodom and Gomorrah by the Medes, that it will be uninhabited, that their conquerors will not take pity on their babies, that it will be desolate and a habitation for wild beasts and evil spirits, essentially painting the picture of God sending the Medes to utterly destroy the city as vengeance for how it treated Israel. But the reality of the situation is that the Persians conquered it rather bloodlessly and it continued to be an important city only declining slowly over the course of many centuries to eventually be abandoned. In essence Babylon did not fall.

Likewise there is the city of Tyre, which the prophet Ezekiel predicted that Nebuchadnezzar would conquer, plunder, and utterly destroy, and the city would never be rebuilt. Nebuchadnezzar did in fact launch an invasion against Tyre, devastated the mainland, but chaffed 13 years in trying to conquer the island part before Tyre stuck a deal with him to be a vassal state. The city survived intact. Ezekiel later made another prophecy in that very same book saying that Nebuchadnezzar struggled 13 years against the city and didn’t get his plunder admitting the prophecy failed and saying instead that God would give him Egypt for wages. I think that this incident shows quite nicely that God’s prophecy interacts with free will and changing circumstances and highlights the contingency of prophecy on these things. Later Alexander the Great did conquer Tyre in the fashion stated by the prophecy but this was centuries later, Nebuchadnezzar was the prophesized instrument and not Alexander, and the city got rebuilt and exists to this day. Jesus visited Tyre and Sidon and didn’t seem bothered by the prophecy not turning out as he said it would. This shows that there are layers of prophetic fulfillment and hyperbole involved in prophetic pronouncements, (the city not being rebuilt.)

Then there’s Egypt which was promised to Nebuchadnezzar as wages. The prophecy said that the Babylonians would conquer and utterly destroy Egypt, conquer cities like Memphis and leave their cities as rubble, that Egypt would be made like a bare rock a barren place, it would be uninhabited, their idols and obelisks would be smashed, and their people would be scattered and exiled to the ends of the earth, but that after forty years they would be returned to Egypt and Egypt world exist as a lowly kingdom, and the Nile would dry up. The Babylonians did indeed invade Egypt and we don’t know exactly what happened but we know that Egypt was not conquered by the Babylonians, they were never in Memphis, their people were not scattered and exiled, and that there has never been a period in Egyptian history where Egypt has been uninhabited, and the Nile has never dried up. The scant evidence we have for a Babylonian invasion of Egypt comes from Babylonian records and it’s very brief and doesn’t mention the outcome. Ancient empires like this were loathe to admit defeat and it seems that Nebuchadnezzars army was pushed back and he didn’t get his wages. Parts of the prophecies were fulfilled under the Persian invasion later with the oppression, the destroying of religious objects and idols, but still the Egyptians were not exiled, the land was not uninhabited, and the Nile didn’t dry up.

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great post Clovis.

Whilst i am only quoting part of it, i did read all of your post.

One of the problems there is this…failed prophecy doesnt mean historical inaccuracies in the bible such that we can than make the claim that historical biblical events never happened (ie the flood).

A prophecy quite often doesnt included specific historical pointers…its often a generalised future claim that is almost always conditional on repentance (the prophecies of Ezekiel are definitely examples of that).

The flood was conditional as well, Noah preached for 120 years and was ignored…the significant thing to note there is that the bible itself records the consequences of the account of the prophet Noah (which it does not do in the examples of Ezekiel). When we consider some of the other captivity prophecies which were fulfilled in the bible…we actually read about the outcomes of them in those same pages.

I agree largely with your interest in failed prophecies…its a big issue for many Christians (myself included), however, some of those prophecies arent failures because the bible was wrong, they are failures simply because they haven’t happened yet and we shouldn’t forget that point (The Second Coming)

BTW…there are some significant prophecies that have occurred as predicted

  1. Daniels prophecy about the abomination of desolation (where the temple was defiled)…this has almost certainly taken place…we have a number of events which can be attributed to fulfillment of that prophecy

  2. Christs prediction about the destruction of Jerusalem’s beautiful Herodian temple The Romans utterly destroyed this building and not a single stone was left unturned as predicted…has it been rebuilt? Well yes…a muslim mosque sits on the site :wink:

oh oh i just thought of another questionable prophecy…

“there will be wars and rumours of wars” (matthew 24:6)

seems to me that there have been wars and rumours of wars for the entirety of the biblical story.

an interesting fact about the city of tyre…to some extent i think the prophecy in Ezekiel was kind of fulfilled, we know the Nebuchadnezzar did besiege the city and he absolutely annihilated the land based settlements of the city of Tyre.

'Tyre had two cities…a mainland city Ushu and the Island City Tyre (so that mainland part of the prophecy was definitely fulfilled). Nebuchadnezzar besieged the city and absolutely ravished its walls for 13 years…one can only image the terrifying suffering that 13 years of besieging would have caused an islands people with no access to food replenishment for that time…

It is also interesting that the city was left almost uninhabited from 1291 when it was attacked and overwhelmed by the Mamluks until the late 1800’s when 200 people were settled on the Isle again!

note the following:

Not a bad summary – I’ll give Gemini an A- (the minus is because the “Forthtelling vs Fortelling” point is rather extraneous, and the “Already/Not Yet Fulfillment” point needs a bit more fleshed out).

No it doesn’t – ancient near eastern studies shed light on the scriptures, helping us understand them, especially in unfolding the theology.

You have never provided any evidence for your “HISTORICAL” assertion other than your own opinion. Ancient near eastern studies asks the question that any humble student of written material should ask first, namely “What kind of literature is this?”

So are you ready to accept that books by John Grisham and John Steinbeck are historical documents? They meet all your criteria.

That’s easy – it’s because you impose a MSWV onto the scriptures, assuming that they were written according to the objective reporting standards which that worldview demands as a part of its definition of truth. Thus you invent problems that aren’t there if the scriptures are read for what they are.
The YEC approach to scripture is unChristian because it denies that Christ is the exact representation of God’s being. How? Because it denies that the Holy Spirit acted incarnationally in inspiring the text, throwing away the minds of the actual writers and replacing them with twentieth-century minds. If Christ is the exact representation of God’s being, then all of God’s activities, regardless of which Person of the Trinity is acting, will be incarnational, and if inspiration is incarnational then the attitudes, knowledge, and worldviews of the human writers will be tied up in the text. YEC effectively denies this by insisting that the ancient literature of the Old Testament was not written as ancient literature but as modern literature.
One main result of that is that Christ, Who is the Center of theology, is tossed to the side in favor of nontheological material – and that, too, is unChristian, since all of the scripture points to Christ, not just parts or even most of it.

Please have enough respect to address what people have written rather than invoking your conspiracy theories. First, “Darwinian Evolution timelines” have nothing to do with scripture; second, having “a sophisticated understanding of prophecy that allow[s] for conditionality, symbolism, long-term scope, and an overarching focus on God’s character and covenant faithfulness, rather than a strict adherence to every literal detail of every prediction within a limited timeframe” does not indicate that “the historical need for the stories of the bible are not really that important to us”, it indicates that modern westerners have a strange perspective on either prophecy, history, or both.

If you can ask that, you have no Christian theology. The Bible is not useful because it gives scientifically accurate information, or because it reports accurate historical information, it is useful because it points to Christ. Any other application of the Bible is not only not theological but is not Christian.

Due to this incoherent statement I have to ask: do you even know what ANE stands for? Because the following is just false:

That’s something you’ve invented but does not apply to anything that anyone else in this forum has ever said.

I “don’t endorse the barbarism of the Old Testament story” because it does not reflect the Cross and He Who died there.

No, we’re not – we’re left with a library of ancient literature of different types, each portion of which has to be understood as what it was written to be. That’s just an element of your favorite “ordinary use of language”, that the meaning of a piece of writing depends on what kind of writing it is.

Except it doesn’t – that’s an atheistic fallacy you’ve bought into.
Evolution says nothing about ethics, and can’t – you can’t get “ought” from “is”.

That would be because there’s no such thing as “ANE science discussions”. I suppose one could be contrived, but basically the ancient near east didn’t have science, they had mytho-theology.

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Another reason for the minus on the grade I gave Gemini: it didn’t address the hyperbole common in ancient near eastern language of victory and conquest and whether or not that plays a part in Hebrew prophecy. There are examples of the use of phrases such as victors trampling the conquered people’s babies where it is known that such a thing didn’t happen in any widespread fashion, and the same is true of the phrasing about “wild beats and evil spirits”. We know that scripture indulges in such language; there are a number of examples in Joshua alone.

That seems a reasonable conclusion.
We think of God acting in the Old Testament period, but God is also acted on.

This brought to mind an inscription we translated concerning a defeated city, something like, “The city is overturned, the gods have fled”. Part of ancient near eastern theology was that when a city was defeated it meant its gods had been defeated; given that the Nile was practically divine for Egypt, a reference to the Nile drying up could fall into this category – assuming, of course, that such usage fits Hebrew prophecy.

And ANE nations didn’t always distinguish between them.

Um, Nebuchanezzar failed because that island’s people had easy access to food replenishment – they had a port and a fleet that he could not touch, along with colonies that they could have traded with. It’s why Alexander went with the crazy idea of a causeway: he knew the island, as an island with a fleet, could hold out forever.

Except it wasn’t an isle any more, not since Alexander. His causeway caught the coastal movement of sand and turned the whole thing into a peninsula.

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And your authority is?

What an outrageous vanity!

The crunch does come down to the understanding of prophecy and/or Scripture and there are quite a number of people here who seem to think that they, and they alone have the “correct” one.

It is interesting, in passing, to note that, especially in Kings or Chronicles Drum and dance euphoria is called Prophecy. On Mt Carmel the prophets of Bhaal use this method to try and contact him They were not prophecying at all.

So we have an immediate misconception of what prophecy is

Prophecy is also looked at as predicting the future, as in Nostradamus, but often the words are so general they can be applied or interpretted in retrospect. Prophecy is of little use if it is only understood after the effect.

We are looking at Scripture after the effect, with the exception of Second coming or apocryphal words that seem to be beyond precise understanding.

Daniel is often viewed as apocryphal and yet it can also be viewed as the changes of government for Judaism, each element being related to Babylon or Greece, or Rome and so on. There is even an outrageous view that Daniel was written during the Maccabean era and was in fact retrospective not prophecy at all.

Perhaps it is only human vanity that thinks it can fully understand the words of God whether spoken direct or written down.

To claim God might have got it wrong would seem to be the height of hubris

Richard

Hyperbole or not, the prophecy implies more than what happened to Babylon happening. It implies a great and severe judgement on Babylon and that did not really materialize. Babylon was conquered rather bloodlessly and as I recall was made the capital city of the empire that conquered it. Babylon got off easy.

What is the point of the prophecy? Modern Western culture tends to bias us towards the error of expecting a magic prediction of details of future incidents. But prophecy is not a peek into the future for curiosity. The point is to generate a response in us. A focus on one issue can produce a message that sounds very different from a message targeting another issue. For example, what happens to the nations in eschatological prophecies? Some refer to their being judged, some refer to their incorporation into God’s people, some potray them as bringing tribute, etc.

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I’m a human being who covered that material in my first OT overview course in college, then again in grad school – as opposed to an AI that can’t think and admits it gets things wrong.

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From an ANE perspective being occupied and used as someone else’s capital wouldn’t count as getting off easy. It meant that the city’s gods were not just overthrown but were driven out and replaced, with not even a desolate ruin to haunt in hopes of restoration someday.
We have to keep in mind that to the ancients, a city wasn’t just the buildings and people, it was first of all a realm belonging to gods who used it to show their glory. A city was in a very strong way a spiritual entity, so occupation was akin to being possessed by alien spirits/gods/demons (where a demon was any spiritual entity not on your side).
To be conquered bloodlessly was to be utterly humiliated; it meant your warriors had had no chance to fight for the city’s glory and that the city’s gods had been made so impotent they couldn’t even muster defenders. These days a bloodless coup is admirable, but that comes from a totally different value system.

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Plus as with the rest of Hebrew scripture, prophecy is relational – it isn’t so much about objective details as about spiritual realities and the relations between gods or God and humans. It isn’t interested in train-schedule type information, it’s interested in the status of things before Heaven. This is seen in ANE creation stories, including the opening Genesis one; the accounts aren’t about events, they’re about relationships – between gods and gods, between gods and thins, between gods and people, or as in the Genesis version, between YHWH-Elohim and all those other entities. Applying that to prophecy, a statement about being turned to a wasteland may well be a declaration that the place’s gods were being overthrown forever.

Given the relational aspect of revelation, this is a good example: the point isn’t the things said about the nation happening literally, it’s about what those things say about the relationship between the nations and God, between the nations and God’s people.

But prophecy is hardly my area of expertise, so I’ll leave it at that.

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Very interesting.

oh wow. Now that is boasting and puffed up pride and self elected authority.

Which means diddley squat. I covered Evolution in Senor school and college!

You are not the ultimate authority on anything. You are just a human being with illusions of grandeur and knowledge.
And Gemini deserves an apology from you. You have maligned him.

Richard

What? How the heck do you come with that tripe…you dont even quote scripture in support of your world view…you are therefore demonstrably telling a porky there.

Your historical claim is nothing short of blindly ignorant…the bible has more than 2500 years of intrinsic history that i quote extensively. Trouble is, you dont believe it…for example, you imply regularly that the Exodus never happened…i beoieve it did happen necause the Bible says it happened…so who is really twisting scripture there?

The problem with your claim there is a fundamental fact…there are no internal consistencies within your claims…you.attempt to insert genre all the time is clearly falsified by New Testament writers who, more than 1000 after Moses (Christ and Apostle Peter), agree with his flood narrative not only in a different language, but under completely different cultural influences. Moses influences were largely Egyptian and Midianite, Christ and Peter Jewish and Roman.

The genre and literary arguments are 100% flogging dead horses…the argument is extremely deficient and i have referenced extensively why it doesnt hold up to close scrutiny.

its interesting because it also theologically and historically stupid. The historocal fact is tyre was beseiged by Nebuchadnezzar exactly as prophesied and the mainland part of the city was destroyed…the 13 years of seige of the island would have caused an unimaginable suffering due to the famine caused in the city without food. That was real history…not some kind of religious morality myth lesson for us to read 3000 years later…