Were humans created with a sinful nature?

[Ralphie (ralph benson)]

@Vinnie

Furthermore, you can have a personal relationship with God without knowing or accepting Christian doctrine. It might be in another faith. Or maybe you only understand a small piece of God through the natural world and you latch onto it even though you don’t know it. To me, God is the transcendent yet imminent creator of the universe. There are more ways to having a relationship with the creator of the universe than through knowledge of his 1-4 year incarnation.

You do believe, though, that knowledge of something is important?

“I will stand by my statement that the fundamentalist portrait of Jesus is intellectually bankrupts.”

What does a more accurate portrait of Jesus look like? Any thoughts along those lines?

“…on some key issues. The only ones that really matters to me are the incarnation of Jesus and the push to love your follow man.”

It seems that you do have knowledge of and appreciation for the knowledge that God was incarnated and that is important to you. Why is this knowledge important to you? Didn’t you also say that knowledge of any historic information is irrelevant?

Where do you find this “push to love your fellow man”?

“Furthermore, you can have a personal relationship with God without knowing or accepting Christian doctrine…”

Loving your fellow man is essential Christian doctrine. How do you know you can have a personal relationship with God? Why do you think God can be known personally?

I asked you questions the past couple days, but haven’t heard a peep. I consider your answers important for several reasons. You have a keen mind and give these matters a lot of thought so your responses will be informed. I think it is good for you to be pushed a little to keep fresh.

[Anthony (Anthony R. Guthry)]

@mitchellmckain

Oh? That sounds like the claim of an uneducated person. People at university don’t talk that way. The more they learn, the more they know how much they don’t know.

Seems like you don’t understand the difference between an absolute and relative claim. All I said was I know more about evolution than you do. Besides I’m not the one who feels the need to keep boasting about the degrees they have.

@mitchellmckain

You know… it is becoming clear that you have a terrible habit of classifying people based only on the fact they disagree with you about something (jumping to absurd conclusions about whether than can be a scientist, have a masters degree in physics and now how much they know about a subject). How can you be so foolish? The more people know and the more they have been trained in the use skepticism the more they are likely to find disagreements with you on all sorts of issues and details. I would hope (though this is rapidly diminishing) that is not according to the even more foolish basis of treating discussions like this as some sort of team sport, where everyone on the opposing team must be assumed to be lacking in whatever virtue you can manage to think of.

No, my deductions about your background have nothing to do with the fact that I disagree with you. It has everything to do with your poor reasoning skills. Where exactly did you get your masters in physics from, assuming you actually do have one? I’m quite sure Its not from a top rated university.

@mitchellmckain

When I use this term for myself I mean that will look for the explanations of things in terms of fixed laws and principles rather than dumping things into the black box of the unknowable will of some being like God. This is to be distinguished from philosophical or metaphysical naturalism where we simply assume that causal connections to beings like God (gods, demons, or spirits) simply do not exist. For a theist it means they think even God prefers to operate in a rational way according to fixed rules and principles rather than by changing whims and arbitrary dictates.

Really? How then did Christ “operate in a rational way according to fixed rules and principles” when he walked on water or rose from the dead? Or do you not believe these claims?

@mitchellmckain

In my experience, most atheists have been more intelligent…

What do you mean?

@mitchellmckain

I put a great deal of reliance in mathematical models. For example I was recently explaining to MarkD…

And how is that supposed to demonstrate your claim?

[mitchellmckain (Scientist and Christian)]

@Anthony

I’m not the one who feels the need to keep boasting about the degrees they have.

Is that what happened??? Historical revisionism in action. It couldn’t possibly have anything to do with your snide comments how it was impossible to believe I am any kind of scientist. LOL

Besides, a degree is simply a demonstrable matter of fact. Claims that you know more about something than someone you have just met is not demonstrable and is more in the category of childish. Is your daddy stronger than my daddy too? LOL

@Anthony

Where exactly did you get your masters in physics from

University of Utah.

Where did you get your integrity and honesty from? Your family believed in creationism didn’t they?

@Anthony

How then did Christ “operate in a rational way according to fixed rules and principles” when he walked on water or rose from the dead? Or do you not believe these claims?

I believe the Bible when it reports what people experienced. But that doesn’t mean that what happened is what people choose to understand about it.

Walking on water? Explanations are numerous. The point is that as a methodological naturalist I expect there to be an explanation and I don’t think that means it was not a miracle. I refute the definition of miracle as something which has no scientific explanation. Does this really sound so impossible? We see far more impressive things in many magic shows. Even that particular one has been done.

Resurrection from the dead? Read Paul’s explanation in 1 Corinthians 15.

@Anthony

And how is that supposed to demonstrate your claim?

This demonstrates that like it is with creationists, nothing can demonstrate something you choose not to believe.

Mathematical models is what physics is all about. Are you requesting that I trot out the scientific research I was participating in? LOL And will that just be a pretext for saying that I am boasting? LOL You are funny!

It is time to call a halt to this. It has ceased to be anything like a gracious dialogue.

[Anthony (Anthony R. Guthry)]

@mitchellmckain

Is that what happened??? Historical revisionism in action. It couldn’t possibly have anything to do with your snide comments how it was impossible to believe I am any kind of scientist. LOL

Maybe I should refresh your memory about the context wherein you first mentioned your degrees… it had nothing to do with me doubting your claims about being a scientist. Rather is was about the difficulty of understanding scripture compared to science LOL! If it was as you say, what relevance is having a master degree from a theological seminary?

@mitchellmckain

Who said anything about scripture being clear? Not me. Nor did I say there was no differences from other fields of study like science. I certainly think there are, and have spoken about them in many places like here and here and here. And I have little doubt that someone used to science like I am might find religion difficult by comparison. I do. With a masters degree in physics and a master degree from a theological seminary, I am well aware of those differences. How about you Anthony? Have you done any intellectual analysis in academia on some some subject? What was it (might help us understand what sort of intellectual analysis you are trained in)?

@mitchellmckain

I refute the definition of miracle as something which has no scientific explanation. Does this really sound so impossible? We see far more impressive things in many magic shows. Even that particular one has been done.

What? Are you comparing the miracles of Christ to magic tricks? If they were just tricks wouldn’t that mean Christ was a fraud because he deceived his followers into thinking he had divine powers?

@mitchellmckain

It is time to call a halt to this. It has ceased to be anything like a gracious dialogue.

I agree. Its getting rather silly now. Lets call a truce? But I would like you to answer my last question

[Ralphie (ralph benson)]

Well, if you insist, I’ll tell you. Yes, everyone is born with a sinful nature. Obviously!
Except me

[mitchellmckain (Scientist and Christian)]

@Anthony

I agree. Its getting rather silly now. Lets call a truce? But I would like you to answer my last question

Agreed. All the evaluation of each other’s personality, education, and all that boring testosterone pissing nonsense… no more!

@Anthony

Are you comparing the miracles of Christ to magic tricks?

Definitely! When it seems to be about impressing people and getting their attention, it is exactly like magic tricks. I mean, PLEASE tell me why in the world, would God break the laws of nature which He Himself created just in order to impress a bunch of ignorant savages who couldn’t possibly know the difference anyway?

@Anthony

If they were just tricks wouldn’t that mean Christ was a fraud because he deceived his followers into thinking he had divine powers

But Jesus made it clear that He had no divine powers. It was all our Father in Heaven who was doing everything, He said. And He said we would do greater things than these.

What made them miracles is that the magician wasn’t Jesus but rather our Father in Heaven. Just the fact that God was doing it, made them miracles. And anyway, I don’t believe in this notion that God is some kind powerful necromancer (like making A&E with magic as if they were only golems of dust and bone). God’s omnipotence doesn’t mean God can do whatever you say by whatever means you care to dictate, as if there were no realities about how things can be accomplished. That would make all this nothing but a dream and God nothing but a dreamer – heck any kid down the block can be that sort of deity in his own dreams.

[Vinnie]

@Ralphie

It seems that you do have knowledge of and appreciation for the knowledge that God was incarnated and that is important to you. Why is this knowledge important to you? Didn’t you also say that knowledge of any historic information is irrelevant?

We’ve been down this road already. I didn’t say it was unimportant. I just don’t find it necessary for salvation. Unimportant and necessary are two very different words.

You have already stated you think infants who die can go to heaven so we seem to agree on it not being necessary.

Vinnie

[Ralphie (ralph benson)]

You have said you believe the moral teachings of Christ are trustworthy and accurately express his thoughts, is that fair to say? Which ones and what is it about them that convinces you?
I am trying to understand your faith, and why and what you believe. Bear with me. So far, I am unable to grasp it, but I’m trying. Are you comfortable discussing it?

[Vinnie]

I believe they generally represent Jesus’ thoughts. And I’d say most of them. We can start with Matthew’s Sermon on the mount. Possibly constructed by him to put Jesus on a mountain like Moses but using inherited traditions to do it with a blend of artistic license.

Vinnie

[Ralphie (ralph benson)]

Now when Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2 and he began to teach them.

He’s got a following. He finds a spot on a mountainside and sits on the ground apparently and He shares with them some thoughts that have become famous. The little we know about his youth explains that He astonished religious leaders with the profound questions He asked. Here He presents thoughts that are very strange, I would think, to people who didn’t know him or who had ever heard him speak.

“The Pure in heart will see God.” When? Here and now? In heaven? How do you know? What kind of purity? Bathing with the best soap? Who is this guy? What does He know about God?

The Beatitudes
He said:

3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Salt and Light
13 “You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

The Fulfillment of the Law
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not

[Vinnie]

@Ralphie

Now when Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2 and he began to teach them.

Then went right down to a plain to deliver the one we find in Luke? I’m sure you could easily say Jesus delivered many sermons. That harmonization is a no brainer but that is to misrepresent critical Scholarship’s claim.

Most find significant evidence of Matthew’s redactional hand here. For starters, it continues the Jesus as a new, greater and more authoritative Moses running throughout the text. Not to mention scholars believe Matthew and Luke used Q, a sayings document in constructing their Gospels. Luke uses some off the material in Matthew’s sermon on the mount from Q in a different context in his Gospel, and has a sermon on the plain which is much shorter. That would reflect an accurate assessment of the stance of a lot of critical scholarship.

[Ralphie (ralph benson)]

@Vinnie

For starters, it continues the Jesus as a new, greater and more authoritative Moses running throughout the text.

Where do you find that? What if He was a Moses like figure in certain respects and what if He wasn’t?
Look at what He said. Who spoke like that before Jesus? The merciful shall receive mercy? You mean, God is keeping track and if I’m merciful, I can expect it in return? Only at the end of life? Why was Jesus under the impression that He could say those things with confidence that He was right? The meek shall inherit the earth? Get out! The wealthy and the powerful gain the resources mined from the earth. How could Jesus say that? Why did He think so? Who was He to make such promises? A crazy nut? He didn’t look crazy. He was an average local boy. Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the children of God. Not by everyone Jesus. Look at Jimmy Carter and the Camp David Accords. Anwar was murdered because of you, Mr. President. Many do nothing but criticize you although I love you Jimmy and many do. What an accomplishment. How many lives altogether were saved from your efforts?
These are the moral teachings of Christ you adhere to and kindle faith in you that Jesus was God?
More to come

[Vinnie]

Starts in the Matthean infancy narrative. I think there are about 5 scenes all mimicking the exodus narrative. It’s far closer to midrash than it is to history.

[Ralphie (ralph benson)]

@Vinnie

Matthean infancy narrative

In Matthew’s narrative, Jesus’ birth is detected by foreign priests, the magi ; in Luke it is lowly Jewish shepherds who first learn the news. In Matthew’s narrative, King Herod in Jerusalem hunts throughout the region for the infant Jesus to kill him.

This demonstrates reality. Perfectly consistent. They should be different. If they were almost identical, that to me is a cause for suspicion. It was rather a big deal that God was born. It makes sense that it was enjoyed and celebrated at different places and times.
Good stuff, Vinnie

[Ralphie (ralph benson)]

@Vinnie

5 scenes all mimicking the exodus narrative

But, how can you say it is closer to Midrash than to history if you don’t have more reliable sources establishing history, or do you? Even if that is true, it does not establish that Matt is in error or stolen.

Once I start a response, my window slides up and I can’t see the original content very easily. I have to toggle and it is difficult to hit the spots I need to. I may be responding to more than one comment at a time.

What evidence is there of Matt’s redactional hand exactly? That it continues with Jesus as a new and greater Moses may not have a thing to do with redaction. Jesus was a new force who was greater than Mo, from what we read, and that just may be the simple unredacted truth, no?

[Ralphie (ralph benson)]

The following is presented by a scholar as proof that one of the birth narratives has to be wrong. Can you figure out why he’s wrong?

what happens after Jesus is born? In Matthew, Herod decides to kill all the children in Bethlehem because he doesn’t want any competitors for his throne as “King of the Jews.” But Joseph is warned in a dream and he escapes with Mary and Jesus to Egypt, where they stay until Herod dies. But if that’s right, how can Luke also be right that they stayed in Bethlehem just 41 days (eight days till the circumcision; 33 days before the rites of purification) and then returned to Nazareth? If Luke’s right, then Matthew can’t be, and vice versa .

[Cody_G (I have been crucified with Christ.)]

Don’t leave us hanging Ralphie!

[Ralphie (ralph benson)]

Well, let’s see. When did they return to Nazareth?

[NickolaosPappas (Nick)]

@Vinnie

don’t doubt for a second that most Muslims worship the same God as Christians

By claiming that Christ djdnt die and that he was buried in India? And that someone else died in his place? And by claiming that the prophet mohhamud is mentioned in the OT? And claiming that both NT and OT are corrupt?How about them declining historical facts about the Nt and the OT? How about their treating if Christians? Surely if they would worship the same God they wouldnt have slaughtered Jews and Christians and forced Asian Minor to convert right? If thats the way they worship the same God i mean sure. If you do believe they worship the same God by these claims then by all means why dont you become a muslim?

Clearly you havent done any research on the subject and are quite ignorant about it.

“I dont doubt for a second” sure . Any scholar would laugh at this claim

[Cody_G (I have been crucified with Christ.)]

Well…they had to leave Jerusalem first. Right?