Was Jesus Schroedinger's God?

Faith & Science Conversation
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Those who feel forsaken are those who watch the battle with death. Those who are in the battle are with God and God is with them.

And you were doing so well Martin until you declared Jesus a victim of vicarious redemption :wink:

Happy Easter. He is risen indeed and blessed are those who he is risen in as they have received the fruit from the tree of life that is the cross.

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I knew you couldn’t possibly see it Mitchell. The universal wood for the threatening trees. Even though it’s staring you in the disposition four times. God bless you.

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Ay up marvin. I declare Jesus in solidarity with us in our meaningless suffering. And I DO love your perspective, my paraphrase, of Him as a human slice of multidimensional God.

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Sounds like the woo woo hand-waving magical black box of secret knowledge – not much different than saying… you know because God told you so and you are not surprised that God doesn’t share it with me because it is so obvious to you that I am not as worthy as you are… LOL! like I basically said above… In your dreams buddy!

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Thanks for the agreed perspective. I always find it impressive when the Atheists provide such good models for what they deny to exist :slight_smile:
I have to disagree with the term meaningless suffering. It has meaning to many of us, and it is only suffering if we live in sin, e.g. in the expectation of reality to fulfill our personal expectations. Suffering is the discrepancy between reality and our idea of “my will be done”, so it is a self inflicted problem.

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Not just mine. Although I realised it independently of greater minds, which is always immensely gratifying. And you won’t see it when it’s pointed out. But only if you ask.

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We make up meaning, briefly, while we’re compos mentis, we lucky survivors. As Frankl discovered in Auschwitz. And we will suffer whether it’s all our fault, which it never is, or not. As I say to the ragged, gutter people I was privileged to extend a pinkie toward before the virus, <1% of my time, ‘Did you choose your parents?’.

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Ah yes the guru technique. I will only show you the premises of my dream world if you accept me as your master. I am not playing that game. There is nothing there in the text and I certainly will not ask you to insert your dream world thinking into the text in order to reshape it into something else. Let’s see how does the next part of the guru mind game go? By not opening my mind to the possibility of guru’s superior knowledge, I demonstrate that I am not ready/humble/able/worthy enough to comprehend the mystic secrets he has to share with the world. Yeah… I have seen this trick done before. The only thing demonstrated here is that my mind is not so open that my brains will fall out. I know the difference between reason and manipulation.

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You cannot be mastered, you are already enslaved to fear.

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Disobedience to His commandments. Whether you believe this to be an inherent bent within us or not, all of us, at some point, have failed to love one another and failed to love God.

I’m sorry that I didn’t answer the question right away, my friend. Please forgive me.

God was present in heaven and on Earth. He never lost control of the universe nor did He ever stop sustaining it even while He was also present on Earth.

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My friend, @Klax, as I said before, name-calling is not a substitute for solid argument. Really, you cannot say that Jesus said it more than once because this is a saying from Q…

More importantly you cannot say that Jesus or God does not judge when that is exactly what He is doing in this passage This is not a soft passage, but is as hard as they come at least toward the Jews.

What you are overlooking is the context of this saying, which I think doe soften the position of Jesus.
Mark 6:1-6 (NIV2011)
1 Jesus left there and went to his hometown, accompanied by His disciples.
2 When the Sabbath came, He began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard Him were amazed. “Where did this man get these things?” they asked. “What’s this wisdom that has been given Him? What are these remarkable miracles He is performing?
3 Isn’t this the carpenter? Isn’t this Mary’s son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren’t His sisters here with us?” And they took offense at Him.
4 Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own town, among his relatives and in his own home.”
5 He could not do any miracles there, except lay His hands on a few sick people and heal them.
6 He was amazed at their lack of faith.

6:7-11 pp — Mt 10:1,9-14; Lk 9:1,3-5
In Mark the people of Galilee failed to accept Jesus as the Messiah and He is disappointed and amazed as their lack of faith. In Matthew and Luke the people of Galilee, that is of Capernaum, etc, do not recognize Him as the Messiah and He is upset and judgmental. Mark appears to be the better reading.

According to Paul signs and wonders as we understand them are not needed to spread the gospel.

1 Corinthians 1:22-25 (NIV2011)
22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom,
23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,
24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

You need to start from the Beginning, the Word/Logos, Jesus Christ, not the God of the Philosophers.

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Shades of Donnie Darko! What a guru that was. Yikes!

I choose to be a slave to my own good sense, thank you very much.

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: ) hey Joshua, no apology necessary. I should be shot in the face for my egregious solecism above however, it was a typo, honest!

Furthermore, I have to agree.

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Roger, it’s still universalism twice, twice. And yeah, it’s all Q. Bond’s quartermaster.

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What are we even debating?The christian doctrine says Jesus is God. If you want to trying to explain like "Was he God God or " and with other statements like that is uterlly uselles in my opinion. Debate Trinity is another thing but debating Christ p[ersonalityy and whether he was God God and blah blah. I mean all these definitons are really frustrating. universalism is by definition not entirely "true"If in the end we all be saved then theres no need for repentance or trying to live a “good” and just life.You literally implying that Hitler will be saved. And third ja questions
@mitchellmckain you said that heaven and hell is not ":litera"l.By not literal you meant a physcally not literal heaven or just doesnt exist at all?

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Why can’t Hitler be saved?

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  1. Why do you think he wants to be saved?
  2. He killed himself and his new wife rather than take responsibility for what he did.
  3. Jesus could have saved Hitler if he had repented, but he did not.
  4. God would not force Hitler to love Jews or beg him to change.
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Some of us are debating universalism, the idea that all are saved eventually, because Klax was pushing this quite agressively and others like myself have been defending the mainstream view that not all are saved – ever.

And the reason is not just the words of Jesus which I have quoted above but also my observation of human behavior which casts serious doubt upon the liberal faith that education is the solution to every problem and thus God simply needs to show those headed in the hell direction their mistakes and then they will change toward the good instead (often with platitudes like “loves wins”). I don’t think that is a realistic assessment. People can be addicted not only to their sin and the evils they do but even to their own misery and despair.

No. I never said anything of the kind and I never would. I have said a number of things about heaven and hell, but I will add one more to the top of the list. And remind people that the point of the list in the first place was that the issue is a little more complicated than just two positions that Klax was attempting to paint everyone into.

  1. I believe heaven and hell are the two ultimate destinies of the human spirit as a simple consequence of the two fundamental principles of creation and destruction because there are forces within and without which go in both of these two directions… good habits by which we can learn, grow and become more, as well as self destructive habits (sin) which progressively destroys our free will and potential, eventually tearing down everything of value within us.
  2. I do not believe that God created hell. I believe hell exists precisely because I see people create hell in this world. Thus I believe that hell is something that people do to themselves.
  3. The difference between heaven and hell is not the scenery but the company. I find the traditional vision of hell as a fiery torture chamber to be more a cause for hilarity than fear. If that is all it were then I would welcome the challenge. My vision of hell is quite different. I see it as simply as having ones sins continue the destruction they wreck on your soul and personality as they progressively devour everything of value within you. The one thing you can never escape is yourself – that is a piece of hell you will take with you wherever you go.
  4. The idea that hell is where all the unbelievers go is an invention of Gnostics with their gospel of salvation by knowledge such as sound doctrine or having the secrete password in the name of “Jesus.” This may be convenient for people who want to bash and frighten people into converting to their religion, but I am very dubious that such methods of appealing to people’s most selfish instincts for a Pascal’s wager type response can really have such a positive result – such would be the opposite of faith.
  5. I think that hell is where we find our heart’s desire and heaven by contrast is where we will find God’s desire for us. No few people hearing this thought that hell thus described sounds wonderful. But I think that only shows how little they understand the human heart and the terrible reality we face.

If by a “literal” hell you mean anything contrary to these then I would argue with your use of the word “literal.” Furthermore…

I certainly do not believe that heaven and hell are simply the punishment and rewards for people according to some balancing judgement of their good and evil deeds. That would reduce the Christian gospel to a get out of jail free cheat card – which sounds more like the pre-protestant practice of indulgences more than anything else. In other words…

  1. I don’t believe there is any escape from the consequences of our actions.
  2. Heaven and hell is really about how we deal with those consequences – whether we fight against our sins going through the painful process of their removal, or whether we take the easy and comfortable option of following where our sins lead thus letting them devour us.
  3. I believe that regardless of whether our destination is heaven or hell, God STILL renders to all according to their works (Romans 2:6), so that we will have reason to regret every evil we have done and be grateful for every good thing we have done. And I repeat, this is in BOTH heaven AND hell.
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  1. It doesn’t matter what he wants.
  2. And?
  3. How?
  4. What’s that got to do with anything?
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It doesn’t? What kind of God do you worship?