Not swaped. He entered the egg while still beign outside of it if it make sense. Its like those that"How can Jesus beign full human with all weaknesses still beign divine" things which we cannot understand
I agree that He must have carried on minding the store and entered in to the egg in the shop at the same time. But how? Apart from by nature? Lack of understanding is a cop out. The trouble is, many otherwise orthodox Christians say they swapped places. Not that God inhabits a place.
Jesus remembered and declared being the God of the OT. That’s God the Killer to whom He returns to all but annihilate the Earth to save it from itself in Revelation.
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Its not though when trying to unserstand GOD
Making the OT “God the Killer” statement is a cop out and it was used by gnostics(which i dont have a problem if you believe that he was a killer byt we are getting in an another debate with that so i wont get in to it more.
orthodox Christians say they swapped places. Not that God inhabits a place.
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Expand on this and explain it if you can so i can
udnerstand it
I see it more as humility, and acknowledging that God is simply beyond us in many ways. I can see why you might think of it as a cop out, but I don’t see it that way because we are talking about an eternal creator of the cosmos. If we are smaller than specks in that cosmos, surely, then, we cannot possibly hope to know even a fraction of what God knows? He is beyond us and our understanding–this is the point of His answer to Job.
Yet He has revealed truth to us, and He helps us to understand what we need to. This is made most manifest through the incarnation, through Jesus. Awe-inspiring that such a maker, so beyond us, would bother with us in our rebellion.
Knowing this, why should we have to understand everything about Him, my dear friend? I say that we cannot, even if we hope to. And if we did somehow understand everything about Him, I’ve no doubt that the best case scenario for us is that we would go mad. And it’s never been for us to understand or know all things. We’re the created, we’re finite beings completely dependent on Him for our very existence and any immortality we might hope for.
What we know is that the Holy Spirit was involved, and so was a virgin. This is what has been revealed to us. How, then, should we respond? With questions? Well, why not? But we should also respond with praise.
For the record, I don’t believe God swapped places with anything.
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Perhaps we see that the human Jesus died, but the divine persisted. Jesus is shown in the first of the book of John to have been present from the beginning, and other verses show he was present after the death of his body, but his incarnate self truly died, and was reincarnated at the resurrection, though into a new creation.
I really cannot claim understanding, but just thinking it through.
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I dont think he reincarnated. He just had a glorified body. But then again you might be right because Thomas was able to touch his wounds
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@Klax, I keep telling yi9u that you have the wrong God. You have the philosophers’ God and you need the God of the Bible. The God of the Bible, YHWH, is the God Who sent Moses back sown to Egypt to rescue God’s People.
YHWH is the God Who made a covenant with Moses which was the foundation of the Hebrew state and the Jewish faith. YHWH is the God Who promised the Messiah Who came to save all God’s people from sin, and eternal death.
The word Messiah ( in Greek “Christ”) means “anointed” because YHWH had the ones whom God chosen for a special tack anointed to indicate this choice. God has Samuel anoint David as the next king of Israel, even though this did not take place for many years after Soul had died in battle.
Jesus therefore was the Anointed One, Chosen by YHWH to save God’s People.
Psalm 2:1-9 (NIV2011)
1 Why do the nations conspire and the peoples plot in vain?
2 The kings of the earth rise up and the rulers band together against the LORD and against his anointed, saying,
3 “Let us break their chains and throw off their shackles.”
4 The One enthroned in heaven laughs; the Lord scoffs at them.
5 He rebukes them in His anger and terrifies them in His wrath, saying,
6 “I have installed my king on Zion, \My holy mountain.”
7 I will proclaim the LORD’s decree: He said to Me, “You are My Son; today I have become Your Father.
8 Ask Me, and I will make the nations Your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession.
9 You will break them with a rod of iron; you will dash them to pieces like pottery.
”The Jews were expecting the Messiah to save them from the rule of the Romans, not a metaphysical Son of God. But YHWH had better idea. YHWH choses Jesus (meaning YHWH Saves) to bring spiritual salvation to everyone, Jews and non-Jews.
The question is not what must I do to receive Eternal Life, but What has God done so I might be reconciled with God. The emphasis must be on God, Jesus Christ and not on us.
Was Jesus some kind of superposition of states? No.
Yes. Human beings are to some degree defined by limitations. God lacks limitations but is not defined by this lack of limitations. That would be a contradictions in terms because any such definition would be a limitation – an enslavement of God to human theology. Therefore, God’s lack of limitations, His omnipotence, includes the ability to limit Himself in any way that He chooses. You can say that the point here is that any limitations God may have is matter of choice, and thus not a limitation by nature – and this is the essence of true omnipotence.
Not correct. Jesus is not any such thing. Jesus is God not just manifestation of God – indeed as the creed states, very God not just sort of God.
Yes.
This statement is nonsensical. God is not by nature a being defined by size in measurement of space in the universe. God is spirit and not a part of such mathematical measures at all. Omnipotent God being quite capable of being whatever He chooses to be, chose to be part of the space-time continuum in the form of a human ovum living a human life obedient to the laws of nature even to His death on the cross.
Are you talking about going from omnipresent to the locality of the human body of Jesus? But God’s omnipresence is not an identity with the universe but only a matter of awareness and the reach of His capacity for interaction with the universe. In that sense the Son of God did indeed narrow His awareness to human limitations during Jesus lifetime. But since this comes from outside time and space, it isn’t correct equate this to a collapse of omnipresent awareness as if Jesus were confine to the temporal measure of of the universe. At most, I think you can query whether Jesus consciousness as a human being comes before or after His omnipresent consciousness of the universe in His own personal timeline. But that probably dives into the scope of too many unknowns.
This is not consistent with the orthodox teaching of the Trinity. Jesus is not and never was a part or component of God. That is not what the doctrine of the Trinity teaches. The very idea is condemned as heretical. Therefore this use of the word “extracting” is highly inappropriate.
I don’t know if the latter phrase is correct. Perhaps in this phrase there is an underbelly of confusion to some degree. Hmmm…
eternal creation? creation is not eternal… And this use of the word “simultaneously” is flawed in so many many ways – in both the physics AND in theology.
No the quantum notion of superposition of states is not applicable.
And why is this so troubling? Isn’t this basically true of everyone? Do we not all die and not die?
Not helpful in the slightest. But thanks.
Perhaps I’ve been too harsh. We all die and that’s that but for Jesus, yeah.
And Mitchell, try a less literal approach.
Nick. God never killed anybody, never will. Most Christians believe that God left the minding of the store to become an egg in it. The earliest ones did.
Not a problem under my half baked theories.
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Roger. The only evidence that we have that God exists and loves us is the early Church’s remarkable devotion to Jesus. That’s what God has done, Jesus. Some of those of us lucky enough to entertain that idea know that all will be well as a result of that. All the helpless, innocent masses of humanity will be conciled for the first and only necessary time.
Martin, it seems to me that some4how, somewhere you have gotten the image and notion of the Absolute God in your mind that you won’t or can’t shake. However take my word for it this is wrong. You need to read the NT again for what it says, not what you think it says or want it to say.
God the Father so loved the world, you and I, that the Father sent the Son to bring us back to God and ourselves. Jesus is not the Absolute God, He is God with us, God for us, and God in us if we allow Him to be there for us. Jesus came down in Love so that we might be lifted up in the Spirt of Love
God is Relational, not Absolute, which means uninvolved. God the Father is Love, God the Son is Love, and God the Spirit is Love.
God the Father is Power, God the Son is Power, God the Spirit is Power. God the Father is Logos, God the Son is Logos, and God the Spirit is Logos. Power, Logos, and Love are all Relational. God is Relational, Humans are Relational.
The universe is Relational. It all works together, except when humans try to do our own way and we create a mess, we create sin. The only way to get back on track is return to God and work with God and others in and through love to make things right.
God is still in charge and God will bring together those who trust in God. Sadly that is not everyone. We do not know when or how, but we do know that it will be in Love so that is our watch Word and that means no Absolute God and no Donald Trump.
You’re damnationist Roger. Your Jesus cannot save.
@Relates
Does that mean you are a universalist Klax? If so then your Jesus doesn’t save people he rapes them forcing them to be what he want them to be, cramming his “love” down their throat (“love” without choice isn’t love).
Jesus is universalist. What a sick take you have. Every living thing is the better for being loved. Even psychopaths.
All well and good Joshua, but it’s got nothing to do with my question. Was Jesus (Schroedinger’s) God? Or was He the full, complete, coterminous, translated, downloaded incarnation of the Second Person (aka YHWH, ‘Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh Asher’, “I am who I am”, or perhaps, “I will be who I will be”, or perhaps, “I cause to be what I cause to be”, ego eimi, “I am”, Adonai, Lord, El Shaddai (one of the meanings being ‘The Sufficient’, I like that too), God the Killer) of the Pre-eternal Meta-infinite Indivisible Triune Godhead? Did He carry on minding the infinite store as from eternity AND become an egg in the store at the same time? Or swap?
What rebellion?
Again, all well and good, but that’s not what I’m asking. For understanding of everything about him. I just want to know if He was God. See above.
I do. So can you address the question?
YES! You can. So you believe that He was concurrently God (the Second Person) in Heaven and an classical period Jewish carpenter? I’m content with that. But many aren’t. Many believe, proclaim, demand that He went from being one to the other. Once for all the infinite worlds from eternity. And I would like to explore that. Especially as it cannot be, is not, true.
Martin
Name calling is not an argument, Brother. I am disappointed in you. You seem to be unwilling to seriously consider the position of others.
I know that the relational Jesus can save, because He has saved me and I see how He has saved others. If your Jesus can and does save, please explain.
Jesus saves by forgiving our sins when we realize that we cannot save ourselves, as you seem anxious to do. When we stop trying to be who we are not, we are free to be who God made us to be, and love God and others and ourself.
I infer damnationism from “God is still in charge and God will bring together those who trust in God. Sadly that is not everyone.”, as the vast majority of humanity don’t trust in God by narrow Christian definitions. My unconditional apologies if you don’t mean that. If you have a broad, inclusive definition allowing for Sodom & Gomorrah’s post mortem evangelization. Like Jesus. Twice.
That is a fact of life. That is Reality. Some people make selfish choices, and refuse to repent of them.
Trusting in God, and not in our own limited ideas means trusting in God period.