- By “warrior-talk”, I mean the kind of bellicose, war-like talk that, for better or worse, a lot of us Believers are familiar with and may have inherited from our elders when we were children.
- Roughly, IMO, there are–for my purpose here–two kinds of “warrior-talk”.
- There is the warrior-talk that is directed against ‘the Church’, ‘a church’, Christians, Christianity.
- And there is the warrior-talk by “Christians” directed toward others, be they family, friend, or foe.
- Regarding the former, I’ll say nothing here.
- Regarding the latter, let the speaker beware: not all warrior-talk is “meet and just, right and salutary”.
- The warrior-talk of the New Apostolic Reformation, for example, is beyond “wrong”.
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Im not quite following whwt you mean here…the video appears to be to be mostly focused on false prophets and miracle workers in modern religious movements.
Ive clearly missed something there as im sure you see a correlation…can you expand/explain the relationship of the referenced video with your topic here
One increasing trend among Christians seems to be hardening of hearts and strengthening of extreme ‘tribal thinking’ (we good, outsiders bad). I guess this reflects trends in the surrounding society.
Tribal thinking is nothing new, even among Christians. 40 years ago there were still rather high barriers between denominations. There were suspicions if those belonging to other churches were even truly Christians. Despite these suspicions and ‘tribal talk’, attitudes were not as aggressive and cold-hearted as they are today. Today, the dividing lines do not go along denominational borders, they reflect matters that are hot topics in the surrounding society. Bubbles within the social media seem to strengthen the trend towards hostile and cold-hearted attitudes against those who do not belong to our tribe (bubble).
Last summer, I heard when a woman (believer) asked in a seminar about exorcism whether another person (a believer and a well-known pastor of the Lutheran church) could be possessed by a demon because he had publicly told that he is not on the side of the Palestinians or Israel, he is on the side of Jesus. Apparently, the woman came from a bubble where unconditional support for anything Israel did was a criteria of not being evil. I have also heard opposite opinions, so the point is not whom you support, it is the attitude towards those who do not think like those in my bubble. The others are labelled as evil, mislead or possibly even possessed by evil forces.
This kind of dehumanization is dangerous because it opens the doors for violence towards the outsiders that are somehow ‘evil’ or otherwise do not deserve the rights of full humans. Perhaps nothing new in the society but the increase of such aggressive and cold-hearted attitudes among believers is a sad development.
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good quote. Having grown up on a farm in West Texas, I have been in the midst of blowing sand enough to see its destructive power, making the quote especially poignant.
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- I remember my first train trip in 2013 from Los Angeles to San Antonio, and entering “sandstorm territory”, which made very vivid the few stories of sand storms kinfolk told me about up in Oklahoma during the Depression years. Sandstorms in Oklahoma during the Depression
- It weren’t called “the Dust Bowl” fer nuthin’.
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Anyone here from the South (of the USA) knows what he’s talking about.
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Im trying my best to follow this topic…the first reference in the O.P confused me.
In looking at the subsequent video posted, i think im getting the gist of the O.P topic, however the subsequent posts…???
In commenting on the O.P
I have a bit of a question regarding an individuals susceptability towards being influenced by crowd dynamics…
When i was younger a relative of mine who was a gentle soul, was well known in the family to turn downright hostile and abusive when drunk.
Couldnt it be said that the underlying attittude is actually always inside, just that its normally supressed, however we have this innate desire to be “show ponies” and that that tendency surfaces when in a crowd that are acting/behaving like complete morons?
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Can someone please explain how this relates to the O.P?
One post we are reading about social dynamics in that crowds may be easily.stirred up into irrational behaviour by dynamic cult type leaders, now we are, without any explanation, talking about drought and the depression.
What is going on here?
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Just a tangent on how crowds are like grains of sand, insignificant by their self, but capable of great things when stirred, often in a negative way.
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I have, thus far, missed that blowing-sand experience, JPM, but it perhaps is familiar to many here.
Charles Peter Wagner (1930-2016) has a nice bio–or summation of his life and career – on wikipedia. He (Wagner) seems to have gone through a range of changes in terms of his thinking about churches and church groups—maybe a bit like a teenager “trying to find himself”. Some of this is reminiscent ( in the form of it, not the details) of the varied controversies that occurred among believers in the early church–for example, what about the circumcised and the uncircumcised — could both be followers of Jesus? Eating meat sacrificed to idols? marry or remain single? The details in present day are not the same, but the desire to “pinpoint” the ‘most spiritual among us’ and so forth — is human nature and manifests itself in these various efforts (flawed perhaps and/or downright dangerous in some cases)…see excerpt below and look for more at wikipedia…
In Hard-Core Idolatry: Facing the Facts, Wagner asserts that idolizing Catholic saints brings honor to the spirits of darkness, and promotes the burning of their statues in Argentina. Wagner also asserts that the Holy Spirit came to his associate, Cindy Jacobs (a prophet in Wagner’s Apostolic Council of Prophetic Elders) and “told her that in [the Argentinian city of] Resistencia they need to burn the idols, like the magicians did in Ephesus in Acts of the Apostles”.[16]
Through his close ties to [Ted Haggard]…(Ted Haggard - Wikipedia)'s New Life Church,
Baptist professor and theologian Roger Olson writes on his blog, “…the closer I looked at the NARM [New Apostolic Reformation Movement] the less convinced I was that it is a cohesive movement at all. It seems more like a kind of umbrella term for a loose collection of independent ministries that have a few common interests…I have examined the web sites of several independent evangelists who claim to represent that affinity…So far none of them seem blatantly heretical. Eccentric, non-mainline, a bit fanatical, maybe.”[23] Another term coined by Wagner is the Third Wave of the Holy Spirit. The NAR includes key elements of the Third Wave such as claims of miraculous healing.
Wagner provided the key differences between the NAR and traditional Protestantism in his article “The New Apostolic Reformation is Not a Cult”. He noted that those participating in the movement believe the Apostles’ Creed and adhere to orthodox Christian doctrine.[19]
Dominionism
[edit]
In his 1998 book Churchquake!, Wagner denied that NAR had any political orientation. Ten years later he published Dominion!, an endorsement of dominion theology which seeks to institute a nation governed by Christians and based on their understandings of biblical law.
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- You’re breaking my heart, Kid.
- “Warrior-talk” is my choice of words for one person’s bellicose (i.e. war-like or hostile) language toward one or more other persons, be they human or spiritual, angelic or demonic.
- The specific kind of “warrior-talk” that I am “calling out” in my OP is not what anyone might address to or say about Christians, Christianity, The Visible Church, or a particular church. The warrior-talk I am talking about is that which is uttered by people who claim to believe in God and Jesus Christ.
- Specifically, I am expressing my opinion regarding individuals who actually claim to be “a member” of the New Apostolic Reformation. [See New Apostolic Reformation.]
- You could say that, but only if you didn’t know anything about the NAR Movement.
- With no guarantee of success, I’ll try.
- First you absolutely must watch the Youtube that I linked to above, Gustave Le Bon & The Psychology of Crowds. It only lasts 16:23 minutes. The quote that I posted comes from one Le Bon’s writings and neatly characterizes a what happens in some crowds, Megachurches, and very large groups of New Apostolic Reformation participants.
- That quote evoked Phil’s and my memories of sandstorms which are natural phenomena.
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- In my increasingly confident opinion, C. Peter Wagner and his Leadership minions figured out a to “fleece a lot of sheep” and walk away with beaucoup money, all under the guise of genuine one-to-one evangelization…I note here that one of his books is: The Great Transfer of Wealth: Financial Release for Advancing God’s Kingdom
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So is Kenneth Copeland an example of your O.P?
I believe the media reported that he managed to convince his church that he needed a multi million dollar jet to fly around the world because flying on commercial airliner would expose a holy man like himself to evil demons. He of course denies this, but he still purchased the jet claiming it was so cheap he couldnt help but buy it for the Lord.
I smell King Sauls response to the prophet Samuel written all over this.
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I remember reading Our Kind of People and being thoroughly disgusted.
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As a teen I hiked with some friends along a stretch of the Oregon Coast Trail. At one point we had to cross a section of steep dunes where the wind howled across every crest. That evening when I hopped in the bathtub my legs felt like they were burning from the knees down; on inspection I found that on the sides of my calves that had faced the wind my tan had been sand-blasted away.
I remember visiting cousins in Nebraska one summer when there was a dust storm – no sand, just tiny particles of soil too small to see individually. The town pretty much shut down till it passed; breathing the stuff much at all resulted in coughing up mud later. Nasty.
Exploring a metaphor.
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All we are in dust in the wind.
Dominionism is scary crap that is totally antithetical to the Gospel. That a quarter of the U.S. House of Representatives was Dominionist at one point is truly frightening.
I was struggling with the notions of exploring a metaphor or just us wandering around in an episode of Seinfeld (where 4 individuals sit at a table talking about 4 different things leaving the audience bewildered?)
Since this topic is not meant to “take the piss”, its not just “4 people talking nonsense” (metaphorically speaking of course) I’m now convinced that there is in fact a deep and insightful point to it.
Anyway, whilst I’m still very much struggling with the initial confusion, im managing to find my way and i am more than just a wee bit interested now and i shall continue to check in with interest. (i like new ground so im glad Terry has brought this up actually)
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