The biggest question I have is where did you start? What were you raised to believe. For me it was psychology and liberalism.
Yes and no probably. We are all different. I started with science and then looked in philosophy and religion to see if I found anything of value there. In philosophy it was existentialism, pragmatism, and Aristotle.
Science is founded on objective observation. Life requires subjective participation.
So when it comes to religion, I think the subjectivity of it is the whole point and any pretense to objectivity defeats the purpose. It is about choosing who you are and what you want to be.
I had to find meaning in the word āGodā to begin with. I found it in an equivalence between faith in God and faith that life is worth living. Thus it was about finding an understanding of God which supported the faith that life is worth living.
I suggest you let go some of the pressure. Give yourself time. Focus on one question at a time as inspiration, interest, and passion lead you.
Well, I was raised in both a protestant and catholic faith (each by one side of my family). I ended up rejecting Catholicism after going through the communion sacrament, as my protestant, more āfundamentalistā side sort of instilled an animosity to the catholic tradition (some of my tween classes shared movies shaming the history of the catholic church and making it look like the antichrist. Fun, huh?). But yeah, YEC, emotional atmosphere, church prideā¦ youāve likely heard the story many times before from many people.
As I said before, I wasnāt well-educated about other perspectives. Iāve always had a deep love for Jesus and serving him as Lord, so my interests didnāt conflict with what I was given. Along with that, my goals for life werenāt ever defined. I just wanted to āserve God,ā whatever that looked like. I suppose you could say I was (and am) quite malleable and reactive rather than proactive.
Given all of that, the crisis makes more sense. As I said to someone else in a different conversation, I heard different worldview perspectives and my brain latched on, like āIf Iāve never considered this before, maybe this other worldview is true and mine is a lie!ā Thatās what I meant by being āmore in favor of naturalismā in my original postāI think my skepticism is because Iām so afraid of cognitive bias that my mind thinks the other side is true by default because I donāt want it to be.
Does that remove the substance of the faith, though? If we merely choose it because of who we want to be, then how can we ground that belief in something solid rather than letting it be a matter of any given preference?
That is good advice. I think Iām afraid that it will lead away from the God I have loved, even though I could see it leading either away and to him. However, I see that isnāt a great way to pursue the truth of something, desiring an end before you even beginā¦
Iāve seen you talk about your experience a few times on other threads Iāve skimmed. Your background and conclusions are fascinating to me! How āorthodoxā would you say your views are now that you have chosen Christianity? Or do they sort of stray from what is considered orthodox?
So, do you see God as an idea or simply representative of a value, or do you see him as an entity?
I know the conversation isnāt about this, but Iām just curious. Or many I need to care less about the views of others and focus on my own
Quite the opposite. The subjectivity means it is all a choice of faith. Who you want to be is the whole point of faith and far more solid than any evidence you might concoct. I think we must reject utterly the idea of faith being about brainwashing yourself to believe what you are told ā like that is some kind of purchase price for salvation.
The traditional Christian answer is for you to have faith in God to lead you and not to think it depends on you getting the right answers. It is one thing if you just like thinking about this stuff and quite another to think you are somehow earning salvation by getting the right answers.
I am Trinitarian, not universalist, and take most of the Bible at its word (though I donāt think Job is historical and think it unlikely that Jonah is historical). I believe in an historical Adam and Eve, though I donāt take the story very literally ā no creation as magical golems of dust and bone, no talking animals, and no magical fruit. In general, I donāt believe in the magical interpretations of the Bible and Christianity ā I donāt see very much in the Bible to justify this. I donāt define miracles as violations of the laws of nature but just as events where God is involved.
However, I am an open theist (donāt believe the future is already written). Our sin just makes us predictable. And I think many things in the Bible are contextual ā for the particular historical circumstances. I donāt believe God needs any sacrificial magic in order to forgive us. It is just that cheap forgiveness doesnāt work and the Bible is written to a world steeped in the idea of appeasing gods. But since Jesus is God, I think His death/atonement was more a matter of God appeasing us than man appeasing God ā teaching us how much He loves us.
Its my reasoning which differs from orthodoxy the most.
Real multi-personal entity (Trinitarian) and creator of the universe. It is just that my reason for believing this is it best serves the purpose of supporting a faith life is worth living rather than just because somebody said so (which has never been a good reason for me to believe anything).
First of all, thanks for being vulnerable and stepping into the conversation here. I know itās not a small thing when you feel overwhelmed and lost to choose to expend your limited bandwidth conversing with strangers and I hope people honor the trust.
You arenāt alone in feeling like your core foundations have caved in and everything you ponder just spirals into doubts and more questions and uncertainties and the people you once trusted to be guides prove to be ignorant, or insincere, or liars, or in some cases thoroughly bad people. Many of us, myself included have long sad stories with the church and its leaders, even if the hard parts have pushed us to better more hopeful places eventually, and even if we still have faith in some contingents of the Christian community. I donāt really have any advice or wise words on that front, just solidarity. It hurts. Itās pretty dark sometimes.
For me personally, I have found I canāt think my way out of any of my faith problems. There is no book in the library or expert on a podcast that will tie everything neatly up with a bow and answer all the unanswerable questions (from any perspective, Christian or other). These last five years or so have been real doozies when it comes to hope in redeemed humanity. I remember something an author friend of mine said when asked how she keeps her faith, knowing all the hard things she knows. She said she is surrounded by really brave Christians. I have really taken that to heart and found it helps a lot to put yourself in the places where people you can respect are out there doing brave things because God loves them and Jesus is Lord and empowers them to love other people. We can let other people have the hope and faith and love we canāt muster up at the moment, and just kind of stand with them until itās genuinely our own hope and faith and love that weāre standing on again.
Forums like this are good for finding likeminded people with similar experiences and thinking through issues in contexts where you arenāt risking social capital by asking questions or expressing doubts or unsanctioned opinions. But I think to keep your faith you probably need to do the ārelating to Godā stuff that gets you out of your own head and into the places and mental spaces where you experience Godās presence and love for you. That is different for different people. Just try not to let the long list of things you could learn about or examine more closely become a kind of numbing drug that keeps you from feeling your feelings and looking to God for comfort as you grieve all the the things that have been broken or lost.
Islam has been deemed to be originated by Hagar having a Son Ishmael by Abraham. Hagar and Ishmael were banished by Abraham and Wife Sarah. This to me is the Establishment of the Spirit of no Love and abandonment, but God(Allah) didnāt abandon them. George Bush said āNo Child Left behindā. This is a tough explanation, if You see this too.
If You are wondering about me, of which Spirit I am just tap on my A icon thereās an explanation.
Exactly. But while Ishmael was born according to the flesh, Isaac was born by divine grace.
To be honest I think Islam might have a quite great eschatological role in the end times. Itās just an opinion, but thatās mine. Also remember that the first letter of John had something to say (indirectly, obviously, as Islam didnāt exist yet) about Islam. 1 John 2:22.
Thatās sort of the place Iām arriving at. But it seems that if Iām not trying to rationalize things all the time, thereās anxiety in sitting with uncertainty. Listening to theological or scientific podcasts has sort of become a way to block out noise or trick myself into feeling like Iām getting somewhere. But as I heard someone say, āScience doesnāt have answers to the biggest, most important questions we have.ā Itās hard to swallow.
Man, do I miss that community. Trying to figure out how to build it again. Itās easy to feel that if you donāt have your faith as strong as someone elseās then you are inferior and need to catch up. But bearing each othersā burdens may also mean bearing their unbelief with them. Thatās a lovely thought.
Thatās already seeming to be a familiar place. The emotional, even spiritual side feels unknowable, like I canāt be certain if something is God or just my mind. Believe me, Iād love to be more in-tune spiritually. Iām just stuck on the fear of the doubts that ruin prayer when I try, as well as the frustration when āquick answersā donāt come as fast as they would by consulting the internet.
Your advice is good, and I know it is true. Iām just acknowledging the difficulty of it.
Yes, I can see that. But what everyone wants can be different, and the Christian faith does hold to objective claims about the resurrection of Jesus, existence of God, and moralsāmaking the statement that these things are true regardless of opinion. Maybe Iām getting hung up on my perception of subjectivity just being opinion and preference. Am I mistaken in my understanding?
The latter seems to haunt my subconscious mind, though I agree with the former statement about trust being of greater importance than correct doctrine. Iād love to finally shake it off
I think the concern some people have when they hear that is itās initial implication that evil is not guaranteed to lose. Part of the Christian faith is belief in the defeat of death and hope for the future, right? Iām not trying to dissuade you, but wanting to understand.
I keep typing it out on this forum as much to remind myself as to advise other people. As you said, the uncertainty is always there, and itās hard to resign yourself to the reality that itās an inevitable part of the human condition.
I think life will be a constant wavering between āI know this is true in the deepest part of my beingā and āThis all feels like a made up game we agreed to play with a bunch of other fools.ā
Beleive it or not, you can survive with some measure of peace and contentment in the tension of not knowing anything for sure anymore. Sometimes it sucks more than others and sometimes itās actually a relief to not need to be so sure and so right all the time.
Against God? God is infinite. LOL Saying evil is not guaranteed to lose against God is like saying 1+1 is not guaranteed to be 2.
Against some human? Again I must laugh, because evil has won against humans many many many times.
Or perhaps yours is the question of theodicy ā why does evil even exist or win against anyone unless God wants it too. But I think this is only problem is you think God must control everything ā to which I ask if you think God is incapable of not being in control of everything. While I think it is difficult, I think God is capable of not being in control and I donāt think God feels any need to be in control of everything. I think God created the universe and life precisely because God not only can share control (give free will to others) but was willing to do so.
True. BUTā¦ how is the meaning clear and obvious when the plain fact is people continue to die. I definitely think it is true by some meaning of the words, but I donāt think the meaning is so simple and obvious. AND I donāt think most Christians believe this means evil will have no victories. It is true some Christians do believe everything is already decided and the future already written, but I donāt believe this and I donāt think the Bible supports this either. Yes some things are predictable ā particularly human sinfulness. And while we certainly believe God will be victorious in the end, I donāt think this means the future is already written.
After thinking through this, I could certainly see what youāre saying here. Itās something Iāve heard a lot: How can love be genuine if love is forced? How can it be expressed if it is inevitable?
Oh yeah, for sure. What I meant is, the idea of God not determining the end result of all things may make some nervous about how confident we can be in Godās restoring us. Some people, like I did at first, take the idea of an open future and let it leave every assurance God gives up to the way the cards deal. The question goes like, āAre Godās promises still valid if He doesnāt know how everything will turn out?ā
But I think that the future can be open in the sense that God has not fixed who will and wonāt be saved ahead of time nor solely dictated how every detail play out, while still upholding the expectation of His promise to redeem those that abide in Him.
That is fair, and basically lines up with what I said above. Christian hope is centered on resurrection and redemption of what evil has corrupted, and some Christians allow that hope to mean that all is predetermined. But you help me see that hope can still be held even if some things are not determined. Thank you for your thoughts!
Some people cannot imagine why anyone would not use every bit of power they have to control everything. It is not only a reason for theists to believe in absolute predestination but also a reason for atheists to see no God of goodness or love reflected in the events of the world.
