Vaccines/Polio/MS question

[GStanto]

In conversation with someone recently about the COVID vaccine, they brought up polio and what I am assuming is a conspiracy theory that polio is not actually eradicated in the west, but instead has been “renamed” MS. I could only find a few, older papers on the subject. Has anyone else heard of this??

[Boscopup]

I’ve never heard that one, but I have heard them say that it’s renamed GBS, which isn’t true either. Polio is an actual virus. GBS can be caused by viruses, including the flu.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@GStanto

what I am assuming is a conspiracy theory

And rightly so. The only place you’ll see anything like that is in conspiracists’ online echo chamber pots, or some crank’s posting in a legit forum.

[jpm (Phil McCurdy)]

Having been in medicine many years, there are no serious indications that this is true in the medical community, so suspect that it is a creation of the League of Conspiracy Theorists. MS has different symptoms, different progression, in not contagious, is treated differently etc. Other than both involving the nervous system, there is no connection I can see. Interestingly, however, viral infections may trigger an immune response that may be a component of what causes MS. Epstein-Barr virus has been associated with it, as have other infections, so perhaps the polio virus could also be associated, though the virus is so rare now that any association would be difficult to show. ( Epstein-Barr is the virus that causes mono, and infection is almost universal by adulthood)
That is just off the top of my head, but sure good resources are out there to further study. Any particular reason for this conversation? Was it by a non-vaxxer type? Just curious. By the way, polio vaccination has an interesting and somewhat complex history. I remember getting the attenuated live vaccine as a child, but now only the killed vaccine is given in the US, as the risk of the live vaccine now is felt to exceed the benefit, now that the risk of infection is so low.

[T_aquaticus]

@jpm

Other than both involving the nervous system, there is no connection I can see. Interestingly, however, viral infections may trigger an immune response that may be a component of what causes MS. Epstein-Barr virus has been associated with it, as have other infections, so perhaps the polio virus could also be associated, though the virus is so rare now that any association would be difficult to show.

Found an interesting paper on polio and MS.

To evaluate whether persons with a history of poliomyelitis are at an increased risk of developing multiple sclerosis (MS). Material and methods – All patients diagnosed with acute poliomyelitis in the greater capital area of Copenhagen, Denmark, between 1919 and 1954 were identified and followed with respect to MS. Information on vital status and diagnosis of sclerosis was obtained through linkage with the Danish Civil Registration System and The Danish Multiple Sclerosis Registry, respectively. Follow‐up started on the date of the establishment of the Danish Civil Registration System (April 1, 1968) until death, emigration or December 31, 1996, whichever came first. The observed incidence of MS among polio patients was compared with the expected incidence calculated according to national gender, age and period specific rates of MS. Results – During 149,364 years of follow‐up, 19 cases of multiple sclerosis were observed among 5652 polio patients compared with 11.0 expected (SIR=1.73 (1.04–2.74)). The increased risk of MS was most pronounced in polio patients hospitalized during adolescence. Neither gender nor the acute severity of poliomyelitis modified the risk of MS. Conclusion – Our results are based on small numbers of events, however the findings suggest that the polio patients might be at an increased risk of MS.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1034/j.1600-0404.2000.90352d.x?sid=nlm%3Apubmed

So there were 19 cases of MS among 5,652 polio patients compared to an expected 11 cases in the same number of uninfected patients. It may be statistically significant, but it hardly rises to the level of a world wide conspiracy.

If polio really were moving through the population it would be readily apparent, especially given how easily viruses can be tested for through technologies like PCR. A scientist could create quite a career if they were to discover a polio outbreak in the industrialized West, so there is no way there could be a cover up. Ambition beats keeping secrets every time.

[GStanto]

@jpm

Having been in medicine many years, there are no serious indications that this is true in the medical community, so suspect that it is a creation of the League of Conspiracy Theorists. MS has different symptoms, different progression, in not contagious, is treated differently etc. Other than both involving the nervous system, there is no connection I can see. Interestingly, however, viral infections may trigger an immune response that may be a component of what causes MS.

Sorry if this posts twice. It looks like my other response disappeared into the ether. Anyway, thank you for this response. I had wondered about dissimilarity of symptoms, etc and also that polio seems to affect children whereas MS doesn’t as much??

@jpm

Any particular reason for this conversation? Was it by a non-vaxxer type? Just curious.

Yes, it was a recently converted anti-vaxxer, my mother, unfortunately. Her stance on this bothers me a lot because my dad has cancer and is immune-compromised so I would like for him to get the COVID vaccine if it is safe.

@jpm

By the way, polio vaccination has an interesting and somewhat complex history. I remember getting the attenuated live vaccine as a child, but now only the killed vaccine is given in the US, as the risk of the live vaccine now is felt to exceed the benefit, now that the risk of infection is so low.

I recently read “Polio: An American Story”, by David Oshinsky, and I agree that the story behind the vaccinations are fascinating. It was well-written, if anyone else is interested in checking it out.

[jpm (Phil McCurdy)]

The lesions are different in polio and MS as well, where polio affects primarily the motor neurons that control muscles in the spinal cord and brainstem, whereas MS affects the myelin sheath of nerve cells, leaving scars in the brain itself as well as spinal cord.

[Scott_Garrison]

Not to hijack the original intent of the thread, but here’s my participation trophy for the weekend.
Smudged out my DOB in the picture just for identity theft protection. Had that happen to me once, and I’ve since taken a very cautious approach on such things.

[jpm (Phil McCurdy)]

Good job! As I said to a nurse friend, we need to let people know that taking the vaccine is not just for them, but to help protect the vulnerable who have not been vaccinated or who do not mount an immune response. It is an act of community service. (Sort of wish we could leave anti-vaxxers out of that, but they are benefited also…)

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

That reminds me of a Facebook post I saw this afternnoon that I reposted (not ‘Shared’ because I didn’t have the credentials ):

By a local doc (a pulmonologist) with some humor (thank you, Mary Fitzke and Carolyn Menke):

I think its time for an update on the status of Covid in the community and in the region. We are at what I believe is a pivotal point in the evolution and progression of the pandemic due to the recent introduction of one, and soon two highly effective vaccines. I would like to talk a bit about the vaccines and try to dispel myths and allay some fears regarding potential side effects. First I want to mention that NTV held a townhall event with people from the Tri-cities representing medicine, education, and government. It was initially available as a live web-cast and now can be viewed on their website. It will be broadcast on NTV (channel 13) and KFXL (channel 4) on Sunday. One station has it at 4 PM and the other at 9 PM. I can’t remember which. It was an exceptionally well done discussion of the current state of the Covid crisis in the region and its effect on the hospitals, schools, and businesses. I highly recommend watching it if you want a good overview of where we are right now. As of today there are several hundred health care workers in the region who have received their first dose of the Pfizer vaccine. This is incredibly exciting for those of us who have been taking care of Covid patients because it represents the first really concrete measures that will eventually bring the pandemic under control. Masking and social distancing and restricting our interactions with each other can slow it down, but the vaccine can actually stop it. Everyone who is eligible to receive it should receive it. Period. Of course, not everyone will. There are various reasons why that is the case but mostly is boils down to fear of potential long term effects of the vaccine. Hard core antivaxers can stop reading now (as if they would have gotten this far in this post anyway lol). I’m really focusing on rational people who have legitimate concerns about the vaccines that do not involve tracking chips (seriously as if anyone really cares what most of you are doing or where you’re at []), or the incorporation of viral genetic material into our own DNA (I’d love to see viral spikes sticking out the top of my balding head, #fashion statement). I have also heard some people say that the viruses were made using aborted fetuses.

That is completely false but I believe some explanation is necessary. In the past, tissue from aborted human fetuses was used to establish cell lines (essentially growing cells in petri dishes) to use in research and production of a variety of medical treatments including some older vaccines. Neither the Pfizer nor Moderna vaccine is made with technology that required the use of these kind of cell lines. Most legitimate concerns that I have heard fall into two categories: short term effects and long term effects. I believe I can reliably speak to the short term effects. No one can legitimately say they know the long term effects but there are reasons to not let that keep you form getting vaccinated and I will outline them. First the short term effects. I enrolled in the Moderna vaccine trial this summer and received my two shots in August/September and 99.9% sure I got the real thing. Next week I will receive confirmation of that when they unblind the study. With the first shot I had a sore arm. With the second shot I had sore arm, sore arm pit (swollen lymph nodes), body aches and chills. 24 hr and gone. No biggie. So far the people I have talked to who received the first dose of the Pfizer vaccine have reported the same thing, sore arm. However, there are several people who had Covid and received the vaccine. They had a reaction a little more like I had with my second shot. Not surprising, their immune system is already set up to react to components of the virus including the spike protein (which is what the mRNA in the vaccine codes for). Their immune system is boosting the immunity they have from the infection. That is a good thing. I suspect with their second shot they will have an even stronger reaction, but again that is expected and represents the vaccine doing what is supposed to do. Take some Tylenol or Ibuprofen, again no biggie. A few people, very few, can have an allergic reaction to the vaccine. That is the case with all vaccines and there really is no good way to predict who this will be. Allergic reactions are treatable and short lived for the most part but that is why you are required to sit around for 15 minutes after the shot. The long term side effect question is tougher to answer because, well, we can’t answer it. Not enough time has passed to know if anything happens to vaccine recipients 1, 2 or 10 years down the line. We do know, based on the first 50 or so volunteers who received the Moderna vaccine in April that nothing major happens for up to 8 or 9 months. Nothing except immunity to the virus. And we know that getting the virus does some really nasty things. It makes some people sick for a few days, it puts some people in the hospital for a few weeks, and it kills some people. More importantly, the virus has long term effects that we know last months and may very well last years or a lifetime. I have seen a number of young people who had mild symptoms with their infection but now have a chronic cough, wheezing, loss of appetite, and chest pains. I have a number of patients who unfortunately had more severe infections and clearly have severe scarring of their lungs that will undoubtedly affect them the rest of their lives. The two vaccines have been studied in over 30,000 people and essentially no one has had any long term effects similar to what the virus does. The vaccine protects you from the virus and prevents you from transmitting it to other people. That is certain, and that is good, and in my mind that justifies taking the extremely small risk of a long term side effect. As always, if you have specific questions just hit me up. I’m always open to it. Merry Christmas, and lets all look forward to a fantastic 2021.

David Cantral

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

(I also posted this, the court of which I learned of here… was it from you, Doc?):

A lot if not all antivaxxers, as well as many of the rest of us, are not familiar with the fact that the U.S. (and its waning respect for the rule of law, thanks in large part to antivaxxers and other political extremists), the U.S. has a special court for the statistically minute few that may have severe effects from a particular vaccine. Science knows this and it is no secret, even though conspiracists pretend it is and blow it way out of proportion, to the detriment of all of us:

The National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program
Vaccine Claims/Office of Special Masters | US Court of Federal Claims

[jpm (Phil McCurdy)]

I remember discussing it on another thread long , long ago. I might add that historically the vaccine compensation program has been very generous, giving settlements to people despite minimal association with vaccines.
Along the lines of being vaccination being a community service, I think I referenced Joel Duff’s article before on non-vaxxers and mask refusers being freeloaders or cheats in society, but will link it again. I have thus far not accused anyone of being a cheat by refusing vaccination, as that is probably not productive or gracious, but it is an interesting idea, and one I think is valid.

Cheaters Prosper as Long as They are in Short Supply–MacArthur, Masks and...

[GStanto]

Thank you for the info! I will pass it along.