That is an incorrect analogy. God isn’t letting Christians off, He is a just God. That is why Jesus had to die for us, to take our punishment for us, the wrath of God for us.
I know analogies are difficult to always translate 100%. But it would be more accurate for the defendant to get a sentence of 1000 years (or billion years, or name any sentence that a man could not pay) and someone who did nothing wrong, who was able to take that punishment, take it for them. God would maybe allow us to pay for sins if we could, but we can’t, that could by why hell is an eternity, attempting to pay for something that we can’t. That is why we are even more thankful for Him to send His Son to pay it for us, someone who could pay it, and make things just.
It isn’t the act or sorrowfulness or how mournful and repentant we are that makes our punishment go away, that is unjust. It is Jesus, who paid it for us, but out of sorrow and repentance, we acknowledge that fact and allow Jesus to pay it for us, accept His gift. Justice is served.
Then if the truly repentant murderer, live a great life for a year, but someone abducted his son and tortured the son, and he tracked the guy down and in a furious rage killed that guy too, after his repentance and acceptance of Jesus, that payment is still paid for. It doesn’t matter how well you live, or how bad you live, you can’t serve you punishment, the only way for justice to have been done is to believe in Jesus who did it for you, or to spend an eternity trying to do it away from God.
It still seems your understanding is surface level of some words. I am not convinced you understand the Christian narrative yet of God’s love.
Again, they couldn’t be punished enough, thanks be to God for sending His Son to take on that punishment for us!
That might be true for many religions, but not for Christianity. That is one thing that sets it apart from other religions. God is just, and justice will always be done, we are all evil doers (some more than others) when we rejected the very God that created us.
It doesn’t prove it, but it makes a great case for it. A world without God, is a world without, love and compassion. Where does love come from? Science can’t prove it. Love can’t prove something scientifically, but it can greatly encourage a belief in something. Anything apart from God is awful.
The only way to truly repent is to truly trust in Jesus. If you just regret an act, and try to not do it again truly, that isn’t repentance that is worth anything. Romans 8:5-11
" Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life[d] because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of[e] his Spirit who lives in you."
If you focus on repenting or stopping an act, you have already failed or will fail. “7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so”
True repentance, is turning to God, acknowledging that Jesus paid your punishment/debt, and you never could, which allows the Holy Spirit to dwell inside you, and it is that Spirit that allows you to repent and not sin. Just like death could not hold down Jesus, The Spirit cannot sin. If you keep that in your minds focus, you won’t sin, not of your own efforts, but an fruit tree bears fruits if you allow it. Our good works and repentance shouldn’t be effort, it overflows from the Spirit from within us. “11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life”
This is how we were designed/engineered by God, to fully depend on Him, this is what heaven will be like, we won’t have the tugging of our flesh to do against God’s will, it will be living and loving and glorifying Him (through His help) for eternity!
Life has trials and tribulations and we often forget about the Spirit that is in us and try to do things of our own strength, and that is when we sin again and screw up. But since Jesus paid our debt in the first place, a debt that we couldn’t, it is still paid. It doesn’t matter what we do from that point on, our debt is paid, we acknowledged and accepted that.
Does that mean we will continue to sin at times, probably, any time we lose focus on Jesus, like Peter, we sink back into our sinful ways (we just no longer have the debt of sin hanging over us). But we can’t live a live of sin either, the Spirit that is in us hates sin, it isn’t part of it. So if one continues to sin with no remorse then one might question, have they really repented (repenting meaning turning to Jesus, not just doing good deeds or being moral). That is for God to judge man’s heart.
I do believe it is possible for a man to be saved, and be so drowned in sin, they forgot who God is and continue to live in sin, putting a cover over a lamp, no light gets out, but the light is still it inside. It is the greatest of tragedies. They will be in heaven, Jesus paid for those sins too.
I think the unforgivable sin is rejection of the Spirit. It doesn’t matter if your sins are forgiven if you don’t want to be with God or acknowledge His rule. That is what heaven is. It is like wanting to go to a hunting club as a vegan, it just won’t work, even if someone paid your membership benefit. You have to want to be with God to be in heaven.
Tall order for man, not God, only Jesus could fulfill that tall order. To have mercy on all, yet allow justice to have been served.
We are/were no better than Khan. If you miss attaining 100% perfection, you can’t be near God. Murdering a million people, or simply wanting to stay when God tells you to go (Jonah) or eating a fruit when God says not to (Eve). Rejection of God’s will once, is death and eternal separation from a Holy God who we can no longer stand before as blameless.
I don’t know how Khan was raised, I am thankful I was not raised in such a rough manner. I am who I am because of the grace of God, not because of my own efforts. A serial killer might be really messed up mentally, but what brought him to that state? Was he raised in a horrible home and hate is all he knew? I am not better than him, and God’s grace and the power of Jesus is strong enough to save anyone.
It is kind of is based on deeds…(hear me out till the end, I’m not saying we can practically earn our way to God). Though it is not a weighted scale where you have to have so many good deeds to balance out the bad deeds. It is more like any bad deed prevents you from being perfect and holy like God. So there is a holy God, and anything and everything that is not.
The ‘caveat’ (for lack of better term) to that is that we were created to be dependent on God to be holy. So the only way to be holy is to acknowledge who God is and to fully depend on Him, to help us do His will. The very first time you try to do something yourself or get credit or glory for that deed, you sin, you miss the mark of holiness. You can no longer be in the presence of a holy God, who has not failed because He can’t fail or reject Himself.
We were created to glorify God, and the only way to do that is to honor His will.
So again, in short, it is about good deeds…in a way. This is why the law was given, to see if anyone could live a life full of perfect holy good deeds. But we can’t of our own strength. God created us to be flawed of our own strength, to only be able to achieve our proper operation when relying on Him. If we relied on Him, all that would come out of us is good deeds and love.
Since we suck at good deeds of our own strength, God mercifully provided a another way to live holy. That way was to accept that we can’t of our own strength, and regret we rejected His way, to have Jesus pay for that rejection and then for us to be reconciled back to a holy God, being ‘holy’ ourselves or righteous through the work of Jesus.
I know people can list hundreds of biblical contradictions regarding science and history, but there is not one with regards to what I said above or the main theme of the Bible. That is the one theme in the Bible that isn’t contradicted once. Name a verse
I guess I am not sure what you mean by golden ticket. Like we randomly try to various methods and some of us are lucky enough to find it?
I believe there is one path to heaven, heaven being a place were God’s rule is acknowledged ad He is forever glorified. I guess there are some ‘nuances’ (for lack of better term) to that path…Like those who lived before Jesus, or those who never heard of Jesus. I can’t claim to know for certain how that will turn out. But what I can claim, is that I know and serve a loving and merciful God. I could guess that you can’t reject God, if you never knew Him, so people might get a chance after death with then see God to acknowledge that He is the holy king and they are unworthy sinners and that God loves them so much He provided a way for us to be with Him again, that way being what Jesus did for us now, but prior to Jesus’ life on earth, I think faith in God’s goodness was a faith in the concept of Jesus. Which Jesus is the “image of the invisible God” (Col 1:15). They had faith in God was credited to them towards who Jesus came to fulfill. That is just one possibility.
But then one might argue that we should not share God with them, so they cannot be held accountable or reject Him so they go to heaven…Which I am not saying. God could have created us all in heaven without the ability to have rejected Him, but He wanted to see it play out, He is glorified in what we do, we were created His image bearers, to glorify Him. So that is why we are commanded to go tell the world of God and His mercy and love, so they can also know and glorify Him (though the chance of rejecting him is now there too). It isn’t about a golden ticket to a paradise, a life without suffering and great luxury, a reward. It is about knowing God and being with Him and glorifying Him forever!
It isn’t a simple act. God doesn’t check a block and we achieve a special status/reward that can’t be taken away. It is a change of heart and mind, an understanding of the who purpose in life. what I said above, a holy God, we are separate, Jesus reconciles us. If you have that mindset to want to depend on God (as intended) you will then be in paradise, where you will forever acknowledge His Kingship. Speaking it just makes it clear as to what you mindset is. I fully believe a mute person can accept God in his heart without speaking despite what Romans 10:9 says literally, does not mean that.
That can’t be taken away…but, I do believe one can come to a place to reject God and not want His will. I see no reason for them to be in heaven, because that is what heaven is. Not from a point of sin and can’t be in His presence, but if you don’t want to be in His presence, why would you? We wanted to be in God’s presence, but can’t due to our sin, so we needed Jesus to reconcile as righteous so we can again be in His presence.
One could sin many many times after that. It isn’t good, but Satan gets pleasure in seeing God’s glory depraved. I believe a Christian who at one time meant it, had a slow slow fade, and lost sight of God and lives a horrible sinful life. They forget how to not sin and let God help them and again it is a tragedy. But Jesus paid the price of all sins. If they want to be with God and for Him to be their King forever, I think they still will.
I disagree with Christianity. Living morally is a result of doing the will of the Father. Being a Christian of having the status of forgiven, doesn’t help is live morally at all. The law is still there, and those who live by the law will be snared by the law. If you try to live morally you will fail. The only way to display a moral life, is to allow God to live it out through you.
And it doesn’t matter how big the storm is, Jesus is bigger. We don’t try harder the greater the storm, we just look to Jesus. And when we come out of the storm, the greater the storm, the greater the glory goes to God. No one wants hardships, but if we can glorify God through that and other may see god in us through that, that should be what all of us desire. That is taking us our cross daily, living a life suffering for Him.
There is nothing like looking yourself in the mirror after you’ve made the right moral choice and saying to yourself and God, “may God forever and always receive the glory”. “As it was not of my own strength that I was able to live morally, but a result of allowing the Spirit to overflow from me.”
Like that old Gatorade commercial “Is it in you”, and orange Gatorade would pour out of the athlete. God, is He in you? He should pour out of you. Anything you do apart from God is worthless, we were designed that way, to rely on God and allow Him to pour out of us and glorify Him in that process.
There is self discipline, but it is self discipline to focus on and glorify the Father, that is the only self discipline required or that is good. For if you try to do it yourself like Adam, you will fail, we are slaves to the law, and sin takes advantage of that, the law comes death.
The right path isn’t doing things morally, it is allowing God’s ‘morality’/holiness to pour out of you, which then only moral/holy things will come out, and God will be glorified, and we will be true image bearers of Him. When they look at us us, they see Him, this is how we were created.
I know it is a slightly difficult concept to say God will do it we have to let Him. It isn’t like we can just lie in bed all day and say God will do it. I don’t mean it like that. But when you focus on Jesus like Peter did, you will not sink. When you think of or focus on honoring and glorifying God, then you will focus on the 2 greatest commandments, to Love God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and to love others as yourself will come out. And when and if you do that and a moral thing comes out of you, you must give God the glory, recognizing that the only reason a good or moral thing came out of you, was because it was from Him. That is what I mean by letting go and letting God, not some lazy sitting around for Him to posses us and take over. We willfully hand over ourselves for Him to be able to receive more glory from us, through Him. That is why He created us!
Maybe a better way to state this to an atheist would be… I don’t think I am better than you, in fact, I know I am not better than you, I am filth but for the mercy of God. However, God would be more glorified (which is or should be our end goal) if you because a Christian. You wouldn’t be a better person, but hopefully you would allow God inside you, to create for fruit, to which He can be glorified all the more!
I forget this at times too and think an atheist would be a better person as a Christian, so forgive me of this. When I lose sight of who Jesus is, I forget this. I see you as blind (which I understand is basically as condescending as saying I am better then you when I can see an you are blind), but my goal should be to no longer see you as that and it should not be to improve you so you can see, it should be to show you God in me, so that you can come to know God and then God can be glorified.
I would definitely have a few beers with you or hang out, you seem like a great guy.
I kind of spoke on that above, and though I don’t have the answers, I have some possibilities, but one answer I do have that I am very confident in, is that I serve a loving and merciful God. My life is not to be in control of were people end up for in eternity, or if they know God know, it is to glorify Him. All that other stuff comes as a fruit/result of my allowing God to work through me.
Why did you go to church? How were you faithful?
I don’t know you, but I fear you were missing the point. It was never quid pro quo. You go to church and give to the poor and He will bless you. You and me are all sinners, highly valued, but any deed (good or bad) is disgusting to Him, when you don’t acknowledge who He is or allow Him to do good through you.
I can’t say for certain, but I would guess that God was trying to bring you to rock bottom so that you could finally find Him. I think most people find God when they hit rock bottom, and there is nothing left in in mourning and sackcloth and ashes, you can hear that whisper, that God is, and has always been there. Or sometimes He finds people who hit the glass ceiling and have everything they always wanted. When they are still not satisfied, they search for God. Or people who never reach and know they never will reach that glass ceiling give up in chasing the wind, and chase after God, something that isn’t illusive and unreachable, but the opposite, unmovable and compassionate.
Bad things of this world are allowed to happen for many reasons, and though I am sorry that it happened to you, I wish it would have brought you to know Him.
God blessed you with the strength to pick yourself up by your boots and get a heads up in life. He didn’t have to, you could have been born with no arms or lost your arms or mobility. Those handicaps could have brought you to God, or maybe not. But you didn’t give yourself that strength or intelligence to make it on your own, God did. Maybe He did that so that when you come back to Him, He can use you greatly. Paul was a passionate man, so passionate that he possibly killed and approved of killing Christians before knowing God. God was able to use that passion for His glory in the end.
I assure you God doesn’t need to claim credit for where you are now, but I also assure you it wasn’t from you. Did you created yourself?
I guess if you were an atheist, these words could fall on deaf ears. But if you believe you were created by God, then you should know that you have nothing owed to you nor deserve nothing. No one does, it is only by the grace of God we all are where we all are.
Generally, I think we all are were we are and the hardships we and everyone goes through, is to hopefully bring us back to Him.
as @Mervin_Bitikofer said
Addressed to @Self.recognized, but quoted @Mervin_Bitikofer
Jesus felt that abandonment too, He felt how it feels to be separated from God, it is very hard. He knew how it would feel too, so much so that He sweat blood and asked for it to be avoided. Yet not His will, but the Fathers to be done.