Is there a parallel with the American Constitution? By refining it to conform more with God’s truth (rejecting unjust portions like those allowing slavery), we are more, not less, Americans.
Beaglelady…why should Christians get unhitched from the Old Testament? Without the theology, history, pronouncements, and prophecies of the Old Testament — the New would never have happened.
Thanks for the insight Cobra…
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For more opportunities to bash Andy, next Sunday he will wade into the swamp of politics. Here is a less-than-2-minute teaser:
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@03Cobra, that is hilarious and amazingly well done. I want to listen to his message! Post a link when it happens.
But… we do try to stay away from politics here, so comments may be limited!
Christians get into trouble when they make the OT the basis of their understanding of morality.
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Will do.
Andy stays away from politics too, so it should be interesting.
His wife, Sandra, seems to be a fine lady. And a Georgia Tech grad.
I worked with their oldest son for a year or so. He is doing stand up now. Jeff Foxworthy (who attends North Point) encouraged him.
Enjoyed his dry style. It has to be hard to follow in his grandfather and dad’s footsteps, but he appears to be making his own way.
I disagree. The OT helps add more understanding to the NT and that includes morality. It’s not either or. A Christians uses both. The Old Testament fills it in a lot more. It’s the same lens through which Jesus and the Apostles viewed what they were learning.
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Do you really think this is about saying or not saying nice things about Andy Stanley? Do you think I need recourse to apocryphal books to make my point? Why, I could go on and on.
The Psalms are a great source of moral instruction.
From Ephesians 4 (NIV):
Therefore, putting away falsehood, speak the truth, each one to his neighbor, for we are members one of another. 26 Be angry but do not sin; do not let the sun set on your anger, 27 and do not leave room for the devil. 28 The thief must no longer steal, but rather labor, doing honest work
- with his [own] hands, so that he may have something to share with one in need. 29 No foul language should come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for needed edification, that it may impart grace to those who hear. 30 And do not grieve the holy Spirit of God, with which you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 All bitterness, fury, anger, shouting, and reviling must be removed from you, along with all malice. 32 [And] be kind to one another, compassionate, forgiving one another as God has forgiven you in Christ.*
See verse 26? It comes from Psalm 4:4 in the Old Testament
From Colossians Chapter 3 (NIV):
Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, heartfelt compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience, 13 bearing with one another and forgiving one another, if one has a grievance against another; as the Lord has forgiven you, so must you also do. 14 And over all these put on love, that is, the bond of perfection. 15 And let the peace of Christ control your hearts, the peace into which you were also called in one body. And be thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, as in all wisdom you teach and admonish one another, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God. 17 And whatever you do, in word or in deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
See? Teach and admonish each other by singing Psalms.
Now I will quote a book called “Psalms as Torah” by Gordon J. Wenham (PhD, University of Cambridge)
“The importance of the Psalter in the subapostolic period is witnessed by works such as 1 Clement (ca AD 96). This contains 172 citations from the Old Testament, of which 49 are from Psalms, mainly for moral appeal.”
Clement’s letters are not in the Bible, and I’m not claiming that they are. I’m just showing the influence of the Old Testament on moral teachings in the early church.
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Do you think this is about bashing Andy Stanley, as opposed to raising legitimate concerns about his teaching? But once the chuch gets into politics he might find the church no longer has tax-free status.
I never said we should get unhitched from the OT. A quote was wrongly attributed to me.
Thanks for the clarification…and have a good evening…
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Andy never gets close to taking a side in politics.
If you had listened to all his sermons over the past 13 years as I have, you would know that.
I haven’t heard the sermon on politics that he will give this coming
Sunday; no one has.
But I will bet you $1000 that you won’t be able to tell if he is Republican or Democratic after the sermon.
Who should hold the money?
1 Clement is in the Coptic Christian canon. 2 Clement was likely not written by Clement.
For that matter, even 1 Clement claims to be from the church of Rome, not Clement himself.
Have you read 1 Clement? The part about the bird proves it to be erroneous, but it had the good intentions of encouraging peace at the church in Corinth.
I have not read all of Clements first letter. The purpose of citing it is to show the influence of the Old Testament on moral teachings in the early church, which Andy Stanley denies.
What does it mean to live by faith? Th author of the Hebrews brings up the heroes of the Old Testament.
Hebrews 11 (NiV):
Hebrews 12 and 13 would be exellent also for finding examples of exhortations based on Old Testament principles. But you will need to get a study bible or use the NIV translation on [Biblegateway] (https://www.biblegateway.com/)
to get the references.
Should God’s arrangement with Israel really be “eliminated from the equation”? What does Zechariah 8 have to say about the matter?
You seem to be misunderstanding Andy again.
You have made an assertion concerning his opinion. Can you provide a specific quote from Andy that supports your assertion?
Or are you just repeating the conclusion of others.
By the way, 1 Clement is not that long, You should consider reading it.
“The Old Testament, or the Law and the Prophets as they called it, was not going to be the go-to source for any behavior in the church”
(btw, The Old Testament was called the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings, not just the Law and the Prophets. An example of the Writings would be the Psalms.)