To say that in Jesus God died for us is to make clear and real the miracle and mystery of the NT, that God actually cares about human beings and not just humans in general enough to suffer and die for our sin.
John 3 tells us God so loved the world that he sent his son.
There is a reason the scriptures never say âGod died.â
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How does a person know that they sinned? Just because another person tells them?
Letâs take for example the Pharisees. They believed fully that they were doing nothing wrong (the example that youâve used of embezzlement is applicable here, as this is what their sacrificial system was doing to the Jewish people); otherwise, they would have repented like Nicodemus and Paul.
Again, even if there was a witness, and they go before a court; they would have probably done some legal wizardry / word-smithing to get themselves to be innocent. Many men and women today get out of embezzlement charges because they have high-end lawyers and accountants.
So, in the case of the usher and the church treasurer; often it is between them and God. They may get found out or confess themselves, then their would probably be some by-laws in their not-for-profit constitution; or local and federal laws depending on the severity of the crime. But, again these are man-made laws and thus subject to manipulation by lawyers and accountants.
This is what I mean by it is a personal question between an individual and God. Again, look at the interactions between Nicodemus and Jesus, and Paul and Jesus. They were both personal encounters; and they repented not because of laws or rebuking, but because of God, speaking directly to them, regarding their specific sins (not general sin of Adam) and they changed their lifestyle (I.e. worldview, values, thinking, principles, daily practices).
Noah, Abraham, Moses, the Prophets, Jesus, the Apostles and early Christians did not look to fellow human beings to know if they sinned or not; it was God that revealed directly to them and they obeyed because it was from God, not from another person.
And back to the OP, itâs Jesus that hitches the OT cart to the NT horse. Thatâll be Him. He became the Law and the Prophets.
I think I need to know what you are using for a definition of sin.
21 posts were split to a new topic: Dale and Martin
How do I know that Iâve sinned, without anyone telling me?
(We need to agree on a definition.)
What, if anything, would count as an example for you?
The vast majority of Christians on earth, including me, understand the Bible to be the inspired Word of God. They disagree over whether certain books shoud be included (the deuterocanonical/apocryphal books), but they see the Bible as the Word of God.
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You want me to propose an example that supports your assertion, an assertion with which I disagree?
That doesnât seem to be my responsibility.
Well, I donât know that you have surveyed the âvast majority of Christians on earth.â But it is easy to claim that you know what they believe.
But your claims of knowing the understanding of the vast majority of Christians seems not relevant.
Instead, consider what the Bible claims about itself. Isnât the scripture itself a more viable source? And the Bible never claims to be, in its entirety, the Word of God.
You rejected as an example one that did support her assertion, hence her legitimate question,
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We disagree
Sis., I must admit that I began this discussion long ago because I perceived that many Evangelicals referred to the Bible as the Word of God and meant it very literally, even saying that the Bible was more authoritative than the Word of God, Jesus Christ. John 1:1. To minimize that confusion suggested that the Bible be called the word of God and Jesus Christ the Word/Logos of God.
Now I know that you are not an Evangelical and you are not using the Bible in a way that I disapprove of, but I wanted to clarify my original position and ask your opinion as to how to minimize the misuse the Bible as a hammer.
Roger. If Jesus were coterminous with the Second Person of the (Holy and Undivided) Trinity, then that Person died. Yes. But can that be the case as it makes humanity particular among all the infinite inhabited worlds from eternity?
I came up with a metaphor or two that only work for me Iâm sure. At first I had the concept of a window opening on the divine, initially the size of a human ovum. Over 30 years it grew to the size of a man always with full divine light shining through that growing, enculturated, human capacity. It abruptly closed and three days later opened wide to infinity. But that attenuates, dliutes the human somewhat. SooooâŚ
The initial window is not unique, as C. S. Lewis knew. There have always been such windows. Incarnations on every inhabited world. On each of the infinity. From eternity. And the re-opened windows manifest on the infinite Second Person gloriously. This is where it gets really absurd Iâm sure: God the Son an infinite cephalopod covered in an infinity of chromatophores, each a glorified person still of two natures. Local to each world.
YMMV
How, that you rejected it or that it supported her assertion?
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âWordâ has multiple meanings.
And btw, please do not call me âsis.â I find it demeaning.
Why donât you tell us what is wrong with my examples?
We can look at the different statements of belief of the major denominations. Also, most of these accept the Nicene Creed, which says, concerning the Holy Spirit, âHe has spoken through the prophets.â
(btw, Iâm not sure what Evangelicals believe anymore!)
But it cannot do that, because a claim about the entire Bible would have to be exist outside of the Bible, right?