- Ah, so a SDA YEC will rush to the defense of a Catholic YEC, because why? You think YECs stand closer to Jesus than non-YECs? Get a clue, Kid. The Catholic YEC thinks all non-YECs believe in abiogenesis; surprise! I believe in biogenesis. I believe in the Incarnation, crucifixion, death, burial, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ, just like you two YECs do. Think you’re better than me? News for you, me and the Catholic YEC will see you in Purgatory … with us. We’ll see who has to spend longer there.
- By the way, bit of news for ya, Kid. One of the great things about the Second Coming of Jesus is it’ll be the end of YEC nonsense.
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Hi Adam,
thanks for your reply to my post.
It appears to me that you believe as I do that our benevolent God created all life with the innate ability in their genetic makeup to adapt to a very broad range of environmental variations, so we see adaptation giving rise to variations specifically adapted to different environmental conditions in all plants and animals.
But that is NOT evolution in the microbes to mankind sense, it is merely limited change within a kind, it is differential reproduction that favours individuals with some reproductive advantage to reproduce at greater numbers than others in that population, but again, that is NOT evolution.
A rat is always a rat, a dog is always a dog, a person is always a person, no matter how many adaptations have occurred within each respective kind of creature or plant or microbe.
The insane belief that a single celled microbe reproduced itself over and over again and ascended in morphological complexity over millions of years through mutations and Natural Selection to create all the biodiversity we see today is sheer madness.
Natural Selection can only ever select from EXISTING INFORMATION, it cannot create new complex information by chance in the sense that changes microbes to man over billions of years, that belief is the stuff of fairy tales.
It is only the constant bombardment of ‘evolution/deep time’ religious indoctrination that has people incredulous that anyone could possibly doubt evolution, yet in Truth, evolution is a false belief.
In the secular world of academia, evolution is the go to alternative to truly genuine belief in the only Living God of the Bible as the Creator of all life on Earth, of that fact I am certain.
Do not be deceived, belief in evolution is not held because of any existence of clear evidence in support of it!
It is held In the secular world of academia because an atheist materialistic philosophy pervades our society, that underpins belief in a worldview that self propagates reinforcement of a plethora of justification stories to continue belief in it as the ruling paradigm it presently is, and it does not tolerate anyone who exposes the Truth.
God bless,
jon
Hi Terry,
I don’t know what Adam thinks, but I myself am certain that we are all sinners, we are all fallen, there is none among us who is worthy.
I am certainly not worthy of His Great Love for me, I have seen myself as I truly am and I was NOT impressed at what I saw. Compared to the incomprehensible Holiness of our Creator we are all defective, inadequate and unworthy, yet He sees us with His Great Love for us all, He does not wish that any should perish.
I do not believe that Creationists are any better than anyone else.
All the Creationists I know are humble, honest and kind God fearing people who have a heart for the body of Christ to be united here on Earth, to ensure a profitable harvest to His eternal Glory.
`
THE HARVEST IS PLENTIFUL, BUT THE WORKERS ARE FEW.
God bless,
jon
The Paleobiology Database lists about 1,600,000 fossils. That is a far cry from billions, but still way more than we would expect if the world were only 6,000 years old, so thank you for the evidence against YEC.
Although not a scriptural concept, YEC organizations have all been pushing the idea that modern species descended from much fewer Biblical kinds. The hundreds of species of cats, ungulates, and dogs all came from three ark kinds.
So…where are the transitional forms? If baraminology was real, we would expect to find all sorts of remains of, and human depictions of, protocats gradually turning into house cats, saber tooth tigers, and panthers. Where are the cattle smoothly morphing into antelope and buffalo? Nowhere to be found! All this supposed took place in human history, right under our noses, so any problem of intermediate forms is much more severe for YEC. Did that even occur to you?
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Have to agree with you there. In Darwin’s time it was piercingly brilliant and it has only gotten better with time.
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Yep, I’m not even qualified to say where all other religions and nonYEC denominations go wrong or why a loving God doesn’t make the truth easier to know. But then creation is so spectacular I just have to be grateful even if I don’t have all the easy answers you find in Genesis.
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yep agreed.
I acknowledge that there are many evidences utilised in the confirmation of evolutionary belief as portrayed by naturalism, however, like you, i take the approach that we also have many evidences for YECism as well…that these evidences are consistent and do form a well rounded belief system
The difference here is, that if one is to take a philosophical world view (that there is a God), then the idea that Gods inspiration has driven bible writers into error such that they are wrong about the things in the fossil record, the flood, the very existence of a real man Moses, then i also have to ask…
If Moses wasnt real
If the Flood wasnt real
If the Creation of Adam and Eve wasnt real
Why believe that Christ performed miracles and saved us by dying on a cross and being ressurrected?
Nothing Christ did to prove his divinity is scientific…so why even believe that?
What we end up with is unusual beliefs such as, we are evolving into a moral, Godlike people. That is absurd and not biblical…the Bible is the complete opposite of such a notion…our “efforts” (works) in righteousness are but filfthy rags.
How can we be restored/redeemed via our own works? We cannot!
(btw, i rarely see the word “redeemed” in these discussions here…I think because it directly challenges evolutionary belief in TEism)
Do people who follow theistic version of naturalism honestly believe that morality only comes from God?
As far as I am aware, mainstream naturalism denies that morality comes from the Bible. We have morality because of social evolution and experimentation! That tells me that evolution obtains morality without God that it directly conflicts with the Bible on this point.
I see the above dilemma faced by TEism producing the Christian heresy that is Mormonism and the eastern religious belief system of self enlightenment. Both of the above are not only non-Christian, they are anti-Christian.
Hi Ron,
thanks for your reply.
Yes, many millions would probably have been more accurate.
However, the Paleobiology Database certainly does not record anywhere near the number of fossils that have been discovered and are continually found around the world every day. I personally know of many fossils that are not listed on the Paleobiology Database as yet, though they may be in the future. Suffice to say the Paleobiology Database is not exhaustive.
The point I was endeavouring to communicate is that, in all those fossils there are no examples of Transitional Forms of creatures in the big picture microbes to mankind evolution sense, not one!
Unfortunately, it appears you entirely misunderstand Biblical kinds and what monobaramins are, and as a consequence draw incorrect conclusions from erroneous examples.
There are NO Transitional Forms in the microbes to mankind evolution sense, all we ever see in the fossils and living world today is cats remaining cats, they don’t transform into anything other than cats, they remain within the boundaries set by God in their Biblical kind.
But that assertion is plainly ridiculous; again, there are NO Transitional Forms in the microbes to mankind evolution sense, cattle always remain cattle within the Biblical cattle kind, and antelopes remain antelopes and are a completely different Biblical kind.
There is no connection between cattle and antelopes; you’re the only person I have ever witnessed make this spurious suggestion.
However, species in the genera Bos and Bison can be considered part of the cattle Biblical kind or monobaramin, thus it is quite possible that many types of the cattle ‘kind’ descend from an original kind with broad genetic information to diversify post the global flood of Noah, in much the same way that the hundreds of dog breeds probably descended from an original wolf kind on the ark.
Perhaps you would benefit from reading an article that was published over thirty six years ago, titled:
“Looking At The Original Kinds” at:
God bless,
jon
Hi Adam,
well said and absolutely correct.
Interestingly, when I first gave my life to Christ a lifetime ago now, as I stood aware of God’s immanent presence I truly saw myself in my minds eye as filthy rags, those are the exact words I knew in my mind described my condition before our Wonderful, Loving Creator Who Redeemed us from eternal separation from Himself by His self sacrifice at Calvary.
God Bless,
jon
I’m the only person? I got it from veterinarian and YEC writer Jean K. Lightner, but I do agree it is spurious
Identification of species within the cattle monobaramin (kind)
Alleged hybrids of cattle with members of another subfamily (Caprinae) and family (Cervidae) hint that the holobaramin (all organisms derived from the created common ancestors, whether known or not) could possibly include the entire family Bovidae and several, if not all, of the five other ruminant families…the six ruminant families are Bovidae (cattle, sheep, goat and antelope), Cervidae (deer), Tragulidae (mouse deer). Moschidae (musk deer), Antilocapridae (pronghorn), and Giraffidae (giraffe and okapi). They are in the suborder Ruminantia because they all have the unique ruminant stomach.
exactly why we should be seeing cats which are between house cats and saber toothed tigers, lions and cheetahs, right. All the in between cats would still be cats, so where are the intermediates between species?
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Hi Ron,
well upon some investigation, though I would not have previously thought so, it appears that antelope as a ruminant group of species are included with bovines. So be it!
The references in the article at # ‘30’ state:
“The six ruminant families are Bovidae (cattle, sheep, goat and antelope), Cervidae (deer), Tragulidae (mouse deer). Moschidae (musk deer), Antilocapridae (pronghorn), and Giraffidae (giraffe and okapi). They are in the suborder Ruminantia because they all have the unique ruminant stomach.”
Ultimately these are all man-made taxonomic conventions used to classify animals and as such are less than perfect, and as most taxonomists know, are subject to debate and often are changed.
Well Sabre Toothed Tigers are simply an extinct cat, house cats have survived as have Lions, Cheetahs and Tigers, the point is it is quite evident that genomes contain an immense capability to adapt to a broad range of environments, God designed all creatures that way, and thus all the cats we see today and in the fossils are likely descended from the cat pair that were on the ark in much the same manner as all dogs likely descended from a pair of dog kind on the ark that appears may have been the Grey Wolf (Canis lupus).
As dogs range in morphology from Chihuahua to Great Dane to St Bernard to Dingo to British Bulldog, the cat types could also range in morphology in just the same way.
There are no intermediates between the man made classification of species such as Lions and Tigers that can interbreed and just as Zebras and Donkeys and Horses can interbreed with some fertile offspring, why should cats be any different? That is, No intermediates required.
God bless,
jon
So, protocats directly gave birth to cheetahs, saber tooth cats? Right there in the litter?
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Hi Ron,
so what in the world is a protocat anyway?
I don’t know what the pairs of cat kind or cat kinds were on the ark, but whatever they were, it is clear they carried adequate genetic information for a variety of adaptations that enabled them to suit the environment they found themselves in.
The hundreds of dog breeds readily testify to rapid large changes in physical characteristics without intermediate species, so why should cats be any different?
At the end of the day they’re all still dogs and many can still interbreed when logistically possible due to size and height, so again, why should cats be any different?
Perhaps you may learn a little from an informative podcast, titled:
Liligers: A Testimony to the Created Kind
at:
AND
AND
`to list but a few resources available that will hopefully clear up any misunderstandings about Biblical created kinds.
Each of the above articles describes change that is limited to the Biblical kind, that is, it does NOT demonstrate the kind of monumental changes that are absolutely necessary were evolution from a microbe to a man over ‘deep time’ a truly real biological process.
From rigorous operational science, it is abundantly clear the evidence shows that this type of change is not possible; evolution is a religious belief, held ever so strongly by its adherents that to question evolution is sacrilege and unscientific when nothing could be further from the REAL Truth.
God bless,
jon
Do you think I have not already read this nonsense?
Because cats are different species. Most cannot interbreed. At all. There are no cheetah hybrids whatsoever.
Furthermore, wolves did not directly gave birth to dalmatians. Clearly, there were intermediates in terms of breeding.
That was not the question the first time, nor the second time. That is not the question this time. The question is - where are the intermediates???
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Dear Ron,
How would I know what you have read?
There is interbreeding between Lions and Tigers.
I think you would learn a great deal about this by reading the fascinating article at:
Firstly how do you know that Wolves didn’t give birth to Dalmatians? But even if there were other dogs along the way as there may very well have been, why do you think they have gone anywhere? Yes perhaps some have gone extinct, but given the four hundred plus breeds of dogs around the world, it is just as likely they are still around today.
There are many breeds that may be direct puppies from wolves such as Great Pyranees or Caucasian Shepherd, or large German Shepherds etc., that may well be what you are describing as intermediates, although in reality they aren’t intermediates in the evolutionary sense of ascension over ‘deep time’ into ever more complex forms of life, they are merely variants of dogs that convention has classified as breeds, however the salient point that I was making is that it appears you don’t appear to grasp is that they always remain within the dog kind, i.e., there is no evolution in the microbes to mankind sense; and That is the salient point!**
Evolutionary intermediates in the microbes to man sense are conspicuous by their absolute absence, where there should be utterly trillions upon trillions of them in the fossils and alive today, but there aren’t any, not even one!!!
I don’t know how evolutionists reconcile that real fact, but I know that they manage to never, ever question their core belief in evolution, despite the real absurdities that present themselves such as the ridiculous position of believing life ascended through ‘deep time’ from first single cell to mankind by an assumed numerous number of small iterations yet, there are NO Transitional Forms between the various morphology’s of creatures along the way, not one!
The reason is obvious to a child or anyone with eyes to see the plain Truth that is given to us in the Holy Scriptures by our Loving, Merciful Creator and Redeemer, Jesus, that evolution is a false teaching, clear and simple.
At the risk of being repetitive, to answer your question for the third time, there are NO evolutionary intermediates, that belief is a silly myth that does not hold up to scrutiny.
Once again, evolution is a myth.
God bless,
jon
Why do you utterly ignore Exodus 20:16? You love to insist that the Sabbath instruction is valid for all time, but you can’t bring yourself to abide by a more important one!
It does no good – you reject the text at every turn.
Right here is a big part of your problem: you link things together that have no logical connection – and you also lie when doing it. You trample Deuteronomy 5:20 into the dust!
And do so again.
And again.
Five violations of the commandment against bearing false witness in just the above. Why is that, Adam?
Up to recently, YEC insisted that the giraffe must have been directly created, because of its long neck and blood pressure and yada yada. Now, the narrative has changed and the giraffe came from some ark cow.
Which is why classifications are shifting towards phylogeny (descent) based clades, guided by both genetic and physiological analysis.
OK. Your claim is that there should be more intermediate forms over hundreds of millions of years, even though the entire fossil record is one of progressive intermediate forms, but have no problem with a few ark kinds giving rise to hundreds of distinct species without any intermediate forms over recorded human history. Got it. I will waste no more time on this particular exchange and leave the irony to others to decide.
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Dear Ron,
yes, that is a great idea…
By the way, I have heard and know nothing about the weird statement you have made about the Giraffe coming from a cow, that makes little sense to me.
God bless,
jon
The emergence of new information has been observed – it isn’t an assumption. Examples of this have been provided here multiple times, and yet the YECers here continue to make the lie that it doesn’t happen.
That is not a fact: in the secular world of academia, I have seen atheists and agnostics come to Christ because of evolution, because it is such an elegant mechanism that they concluded there must be a Designer, and then they sought to find where the Designer had communicated with His work.
I’ve known four Christians with PhD.s who would chastise you for the ignorance in that remark, two of them who were ordained ministers.
Then they should stop propagating the most damaging philosophy to the faith that has existed in centuries! I have observed how destructive YEC is to both Christian and non-Christian university students – it is the number one reason that they abandon the faith, and the number one reason that they reject the faith.
There is no such thing as a “baramin” in scripture – that’s science fiction made up to support the demand that God had to speak in a MSWV. It’s not even good science fiction.
So are “baramins” – but at least the scientific categories aren’t abusing the text of scripture!
YEC requires not just ignoring scientific evidence, it requires mangling the text of the scriptures and insulting fellow believers!
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Are you really saying that you can nominate actual examples of an increase of complex specified information of the type needed in the sense of microbes to man evolution by Natural Selection, or are you just talking about within a specie or more accurately within a Biblical kind where the alleged new information is actually already in some individuals within a population?
Well,what is that evidence?
Isn’t that a bit strange, as I have observed the precise opposite.
The compromised churches that hold to an atheistic, naturalistic philosophy worldview of evolution have turned more people away from Jesus Christ than anything else I know of.
Utter falsity! No-one is ignoring scientific evidence except those that believe that chance and time through mutations and Natural Selection can write the incomprehensibly brilliant genetic information necessary for all forms of life.
That is not mixing Scripture with science, it is simply scientific fact!!
The only ones that I see:
are the people such as yourself that insist on a weird belief that is nothing like what the Bible so plainly tells us in Genesis and the rest of both testaments. The nonsense you use to justify your beliefs may deceive some, but they certainly do NOT deceive me.
I will continue to trust God and the Holy Scriptures and rigorously performed operational science by honest scientists who are devout Christians any day over the pseudo scientific, religious naturalistic belief of evolution that has its roots in atheism and materialist humanist philosophy.
Jesus is Lord of All; the creation was made by Him and for Him. He is not incompetent, He is capable of all things. Please realise He created the Galaxies, the massive stars, thus how much more is He capable of creating precisely how He tells us in Genesis.
Jesus Himself affirmed the historicity of Genesis, so why would anyone question Jesus?
God bless you Roy,
jon