They can’t profess faith in Christ.
I see what you mean. Some people see it that way.
I look at it differently. He paid my debt and unlocked the prison doors. I am grateful. I don’t want to go back so I turn my life over to him the best I can. He helps me to become a more loving person. That’s what I wanted deep down all along.
I didn’t want to hurt others, but I did and I hated myself for that. I could not forgive myself. I didn’t deserve forgiveness. There was no way out for me. Hope dried up. I am so different today Mitchell, and I’m so grateful that my family doesn’t live in fear of me. Recently, I was told I was all about being a loving dad. My God, thank you
Neither can the billions of people that never heard of his historical incarnation, including every soul that lived before it actually happened. Lots and lots of exceptions to this belief. Why not make exceptions for geography and poor testimony as well? I don’t see accepting the facts of the NT as being true, or even possessing any knowledge of them as an absolute requirement for salvation. It seems many Christians simultaneously do and don’t believe this at the same time.
Vinne
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It seems that many scriptures emphasize repeatedly that He is the only way, from what I have read. Do you see those statements, too, but interpret them differently? What should we think in light of them?
“Neither can the billions of people that never heard of his historical incarnation…”
They can hear and comprehend, though. That’s why followers have tried so hard to go everywhere. To take the message from where these things took place to any and every land/person in the world. That’s why it is so desperately important that we do our best to share what He did and will do, no?
Good reason for people not to believe Christianity, just as creationism has many people not believing Christianity. But just as one can subtract anti-science creationism stuff from Christianity, one can also subtract this easily abused and dangerous stuff from Christianity also.
I am reminded of Paul’s words in 1 Corinthians 8
4 Hence, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there is no God but one.” 5 For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. 7 However, not all possess this knowledge. But some, through being hitherto accustomed to idols, eat food as really offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. 8 Food will not commend us to God. We are no worse off if we do not eat, and no better off if we do. 9 Only take care lest this liberty of yours somehow become a stumbling block to the weak.
So even if Christianity not really about any debt of payment for sin, but just about getting rid of the sins which are destroying us, a belief in such a debt will get in the way just like those Paul talks about who are worried about eating food offered to idols. Slavery, blood magic, paying for sins, and appeasing gods was just the way people thought and did things back when the Bible was written. So it is natural to deal with these things in the Bible even if it is better not to believe in them at all (or at least, not take them quite so literally).
Romans 7:15 I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good. 17 So then it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me.
This is indeed the very heart and soul of Christianity. There comes a time when we realize that we cannot even live up to our own standards. Sin is degenerative and will eventually drag us below any standard we set. But Jesus’ refrain is, “your sins are forgiven, so go and sin no more.” Forgiveness is offered freely and not for payment. If you are driving drunk and you run over and kill a child, do you really think you or anyone can EVER pay for something like that. I don’t think so, and I very strongly recommend you don’t go to that family and tell them that Jesus has paid for your sin. If they don’t put a gun to your head and put a plug in that nonsense, then I might! What you can do, is make sure it NEVER happens again – even if you just don’t drive anymore. And if that family will not forgive you after that, then I would. But don’t talk about any freakin payment for what you did! Understand what I am saying?
Good questions. God is the judge and He knows how to judge those who did not know about Jesus. I’m happy that we are not the judges and do not decide what hell is.
I’m also happy that I’m saved through faith, not through living a good enough life. One of my prayers to God has been: God, you know me. Please save me despite it.
If God can save those who have not heard of Jesus, why do we need to tell the gospel? Or to tell about hell?
My limited understanding is that we need to spread the gospel of what Jesus did because it can save our lives also in this life and lead us to the right way, away from the road that leads to destruction. The right way is the road that leads to Jesus and through Him, to redemption and peace with God.
I assume that, without Jesus, my life would have been very selfish, without peace and after death, hell. I believe that I’m not the only one who would have slipped to the wrong road without Jesus.
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Father! Father? Forgive them, they don’t get it it.
When some of those standing near heard this, they said, “Listen, he’s calling Elijah.”
Someone ran, filled a sponge with wine vinegar, put it on a staff, and offered it to Jesus to drink. “Now leave him alone. Let’s see if Elijah comes to take him down,” he said.
Even as He died, some were more intrigued by the mystique surrounding Jesus. It’s as if they could not appreciate that a good, innocent human being was dying right in front of them.
“The Gospels were written decades after Jesus’s death by people who were not eyewitnesses and had probably never laid eyes on an eyewitness. They are filled with discrepancies and contradictions.” (Bart D. Ehrman, Jesus Before the Gospels, p. 289).
Not according to what Bart wrote else where and certainly not according to Luke. Let’s not forget that the NT was being written less than 2 decades from the time He was murdered, either.
He is by far the most famous person in the world and people have heard about him practically everywhere on earth. If we can see Jesus, we have seen God, He said.
We have a new industry founded upon examining the NT and reaching conclusions that are at odds with virtually everyone else who does the same work critiquing the NT. They contradict themselves, too, as Dr. Ehrman has done, but we don’t really hear about those kinds of errors and discrepancies. There is a powerful media bias against Christianity and some take advantage of it and make enormous sums of money, while apologists are ignored to a large degree by the same media. In the last 20 years or so, the lure of large profits could be proffered as an important factor in creating this burgeoning industry. If a “Christian” points this out, he may face a backlash of accusations for his “hypocrisy” and jealousy. “Christians” don’t judge others’ motives, or they are not supposed to.
If PBS would like to receive contributions from all their viewers, they would do well to offer rebuttals to Ehrman’s unchallenged statements of “facts”.
Yeah I don’t buy the claim either. The claims of the skeptics are just as worthy of skepticism as the claims of the believers. The earliest manuscript we have is just a fragment of the gospel of John (and yet the skeptics don’t think that gospel was the earliest written). In a time of persecution, many early manuscripts were likely destroyed. So just because what we have is from early second century, this doesn’t mean nothing was written by eyewitnesses, from which those we have would have been copied.
Yep.
I don’t know if I agree with that. Persecution complex conspiracy theories are not very believable. I would only say that the bias likely goes both ways.
This is a continuous myth that is only slowly going away in Biblical criticism. Its so common for scholars, even extremely reputable ones, to claim we have manuscript evidence for John ca 125 in Egypt and it definitely wasn’t written there so in order for it to become popular spread that far it must date before the end of the first century.
The Rylands fragment is not necessarily the earliest anymore. Scholars like Nongbri showed it could be as late as the early third century. Anywhere from 100-225. The truth is it contains a few lines from John (5 verses think) and is dated from this based on hand-writing comparison (paleography). As you can guess, comparing the handwriting is not even remotely an exact science. There is a good push by many scholars today to call into question the narrow 50 year dates paleographers have been using for the NT. Not only that but sometimes they paleographically date material based on other paleographically dated material, leading to a grotesque circularity.
The library where P52 is housed wrote the following:
“The Fragment is widely regarded as the earliest portion of any New Testament writing ever found. It provides us with invaluable evidence on the spread of Christianity in the provinces of the Roman Empire in the first centuries of our era. The first editor dated the Fragment to the first half of the second century (between 100-150 AD). The date was estimated palaeographically, by comparing the handwriting with other manuscripts. However, palaeography is not an exact science - none of the comparable Biblical manuscripts are dated and most papyri bearing a secure date are administrative documents. Recent research points to a date nearer to 200 AD, but there is as yet no convincing evidence that any earlier fragments from the New Testament survive. Carbon-dating is a destructive method and has not been used on the Fragment.”
We have a few others that date to ca 200 and could be earlier but nothing is confirmed. We can’t even guarantee that there is any manuscript evidence of any NT work before the early third century.
Vinnie
That they probably never laid eyes on any eyewitness to Jesus seems a bit too speculative for my tastes. The rest I agree with Bart on as do most NT scholars today.
Vinnie
I’ve addressed this multiple times. I even assumed it was true for a lot of what I said. If you go back and read what I wrote, its your interpretation of what is means to be saved through Christ that I dispute (that this requires knowing and accepting historical facts about him as true).
Vinnie
Tacitus, born around 56 A.D., wrote about the Great Fire in Rome, which occurred
in July AD 64. He told of how it was thought that the mad
emperor Nero had started the fire and yet blamed the many
Christians then in Rome…Latin phrase multitudo ingens, “vast multitude.”
It is overwhelming to me to realize that in 30 years in a town 4,000 miles away so many people had found Christ. 20 centuries ago that was quite a hike. Treacherous. Believers were popping up all over the place, inbetween and all around. Becoming a Christian could present life and death choices. The promise of being resurrected with Christ was presented with great appeal as Christianity spread around the world.
He places the crucifixian during Tiberius’ reign and while Pilate was running the show in Judea. Tibs called the movement diseased. When darkness fell he used the Christians being crucified as torches, lighting them on fire, scapegoating them for his guilt setting Rome on fire.
Tacitus ia secular source.
Dear Max,
You wrote “I cannot for the life of me grasp the reality of hell and who goes to it.” Good for you! First, there is not a word in the original languages that can be translated as the English word “hell.” Hell is not a term appropriate to the Christian faith unless one understands “the lake of fire” as hell. But who goes to “the lake of fire.”
You have found the perspective one needs to properly learn about God. For He is as you state, “the loving God described in the Bible” May I put it another way?
There is a single answer to these questions.
Why did God create?
Why did God send His only Son to die for the sins of mankind?
Why did God provide His holy Spirit to dwell within us?
Answer: So that God, in revealing His holy Nature, should receive glory.
The idea that all unbelievers suffer for eternity in hell is in opposition to why God created.
All interpretations of the Bible must be reconciled with this Divine Purpose. Does an understanding of the Bible reveal the God who created the world so that He might demonstrate His character of love for an undeserving mankind? The misuse of scriptures cannot trump the God who is.
Provided are links to two lectures about the fate of people who die.
The two lines must be joined with a backspace to complete the link.
https://www.thenarrowpath.com/audio/topical-lectures/individual-topical-teachings/
79_2019_Hell_-Three_Christian_Views-_2019.mp3
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I am aware of the Roman historian Tacitus and his comments on Christianity and Christus early in the second century. Is there a point to your reference?
Vinnie
Your feedback is practically priceless, but don’t feel in any way obligated to respond at all. My comments are intended for all who care. I read various scholars and others and learn or am reminded of something important constantly and I like to share with everybody what I think is cool.
I’d like to hear John Legend sing “Sweet Little Jesus Boy” There’s truth in there. Need to listen to “Siegfried Idyll” soon. It’s been too long. First 5 minutes remind me of heaven. Some of the music to Dead Man Walking does, too.
And I wished for so long cannot stay.
All the precious moments cannot stay.
It’s not like wings have fallen cannot stay.
But still something’s missing cannot say.
Holding hands of daughters and sons,
And their faiths are falling down.
I have wished for so long
How I wish for you today.
Will I walk the long road? Cannot stay
There’s no need to say goodbye
All the friends and family.
All the memories going round.
I have wished for so long.
How I wish for you today.
And the wind keeps rollin’,
And the sky keeps turning gray.
And the sun is set
The sun will rise another day.
I have wished for so long
How I wish for you today.
I have wished for so long
How I wish for you today.
Will I walk the long road?
We all walk the long road
Eddie Vedder
Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan
I could likewise ask if there is a point to all this disputation regarding this fragment of the gospel of John. Does that in any way affect the argument I was making? I don’t think so.
What else does the bible reveal God’s divine purpose to be? Anything? What about His divine nature? Are there multiple aspects to Him?
There are many Christians that believe in what is known as “apokatastasis pas” as mentioned in Acts 3:21. The restoration of all.
Many good books!
The Restitution of All Things by Andrew Jukes
The Evangelical Universalist by Gregory MacDonald (Robin Parry)
That All Shall Be Saved by David Bentley Hart
Love Wins by Rob Bell
My personal favorite:
The Inescapable Love of God by Thomas Talbott
God has always been in this for a complete win. Both the old and new testament tell of this over and over. And, yes I can back that up with “scriptural proof”, but the real proof is God Himself, His character as described in His Word. The doctrine of eternal conscious torment really has very little scripture to back it, and it is inconsistent with just behavior. The type of justice God has taught us matches the punishment with the offense. Eternal conscious torment as a punishment for 70 or 80 years of screwing up isn’t even in the ballpark.
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But the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
These are quotes of Christ’s. What do you do with them? Are they mistranslated/ Added later by someone screwing around? Hyperbole?
in blazing fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His might, on the day He comes to be glorified in His saints and regarded with wonder by all who have believed, including you who have believed our testimony.…
Isaiah 1:28
But rebels and sinners will together be shattered, and those who forsake the LORD will perish.
I ask sincerely. How do we pick and choose which words to accept as part of the written revelation from God? If these statements are bologna, nothing to worry about. If there is a “hell” and to avoid it I must do certain things, I better get busy. Of course, collectively, hell is a joke. It is old-fashioned, intended to create guilt and fear and blind obedience. I understand that. Got that part down pat. But, wait one moment. What if it is a real place or condition, something we will experience when we die if we don’t get our act together? What if? Do I risk it? Is it worth it?
Soon, will we have the technology and the know how to be able to look back into our recent past, just like we can see light that left its source billions of years ago? Will we be able to view light that left its source 2,000 years ago? What must we do to achieve that? Where are our physicists? Mitchell? What say you? Anyone?