Someone somewhere is not understanding something correctly.
My comment is to the ultimate end of God’s work. There are references in the bible that show ultimately everyone will be given the choice to repent and turn to God. Initially only a few will become saints by enduring and keeping the Faith.
Perhaps. And perhaps not.
There are very few such, and that is hardly the overall thrust of scripture.
I have a few thoughts and questions about your comments. I am struggling to understand what you believe. Hope you don’t mind.
“I don’t endorse any fundamentalist claims about hell or any Calvinistic type theology about God selecting some but not others to spend in heaven. In fact, these types of beliefs, the ones that make God seem immoral or like a monster, are not going to be true. We know from Jesus that God is love. The historical Jesus demonstrated God’s love and brought good news. 90% of the world suffering eternity in hell, many due to mere geography and powers outside their control, is not good news. That is a literalist perversion of Scripture and insults God by maligning true nature.”
IOW, They don’t need to know anything.
“Salvation is not about a knowledge of history. Knowing Jesus, having a connection with the transforming and risen Jesus in your heart, doesn’t require you to know a single detail from the New Testament.”
Jesus is a detail.
“Too many conservatives read GJohn as if everything is a timeless universal mandate. Much of it appears that way but it all has an appropriate setting and historical context as well. We need to temper this universal temptation by realizing John is sometimes hyperbolically reframing Jesus simply to reinforce his Christian community’s beliefs in a hostile environment as they were ousted from the synagogue and in bitter opposition with Jews post-Temple destruction.”
How do you know that?
“This is a persecuted community and it is being assured of the correctness of their beliefs. The prophetic Spirit is assuring them they got it right. Jesus is the way. Their adversaries, those who persecute and reject them get it wrong in failing to accept Jesus. Christians are the ones to inherit the promises made to Israel. The harsher the opposition the stronger the affirmation of the community’s beliefs. Jesus is the new dispensation, a new Genesis has begun. This is the backdrop for the Gospel of John, not Jesus existing in 2021 timelessly telling all people if you don’t believe in the facts about me in the Bible you go to hell.”
If Christians are likewise being persecuted at some point, does His message revert back?
“Can we maintain that awareness of God’s historical incarnation is necessary for salvation and also hold that at least some of those who lack such historical knowledge are saved?"
Why is the historical or any type of Jesus relevant at all?
“In other words, we can admit Jesus is the only way to God and also believe that one does not have to accept Christian doctrine in order to be saved through him.”
What do you mean by Christian doctrine? Can they murder and go to heaven without any desire to find God? If they remain unrepentant in every way? What qualifies someone to go to heaven, anything?
Forget Christian doctrine for a minute. What does a person have to do to be saved?
“Salvation is not about giving your intellectual assent to something. We aren’t that smart that God cares about our IQ or the babble that we think we mean. The Gospel doesn’t need or require our approval. It is not one of the many doors in life but the hinge of all doors. Accepting the transforming and risen Jesus in your heart does not require giving intellectual assent to the verisimilitude of a book. People of other faiths who repent, love God and try to follow his will, living a charitable life, demonstrating the fruits of the Spirit, can and do make it into heaven.”
Again, why doesn’t everyone go to heaven? Why do you believe we must try to be charitable? (How charitable?)
“I don’t endorse any fundamentalist claims about hell or any Calvinistic type theology about God selecting some but not others to spend in heaven. In fact, these types of beliefs, the ones that make God seem immoral or like a monster, are not going to be true.”
How can you be sure of this? Are your ideas of morality correct beyond a doubt? Where do you get your ideas on morality?
Forget Calvin and Fundamentalists for a moment. Did Jesus say anything about hell? What? Is it something to consider seriously? Why doesn’t everyone go to heaven?
“We know from Jesus that God is love. The historical Jesus demonstrated God’s love and brought good news.”
The historical Jesus is irrelevant in your eyes, I thought.
How was it fair or moral for a God of love to direct his son to die for our sins?
“90% of the world suffering eternity in hell, many due to mere geography and powers outside their control, is not good news.”
Why does geography make it beyond their control? What makes knowing Christ impossible for anyone?
“That is a literalist perversion of Scripture and insults God by maligning true nature.”
How do you know what his true nature is?
That’s one… limited interpretation of Peter’s strange allusion.
I don’t mind at all. I’ll try to clarify what I mean as best I can
Jesus is fully God in Christianity. He has existed since eternity past. God can be known outside of a book and outside of his historical incarnation, the ministry of which lasted only 1-4 years. That is my point. I have asserted that Jesus may in fact be the only way to the father. My argument is that even if absolutely true, the only way through Jesus, is not through accurate knowledge of an incarnational ministry that lasted 1-4 years. This path may provide the broadest road to salvation but I don’t think it’s the only one. You can clearly be repentant, accept “God” into your heart and live a charitable life, showing fruits of the spirit no matter where you live or what religion you hold to. In fact, even some who profess Christ, claim to be “born again” seem filled with hatred. Most of us have encountered the “God hates fags” types. I can’t find a good reason why a repentant and pious Muslim woman who takes care of her family, often prays to and loves God is doomed to hell.
For you and me this questions opens up a can of worms we’ve already been discussing in the “John History or Reframing” thread. For me, careful exegesis of the text (the way “the Jews” are mentioned! and other things) shows this. For the rest, post #8 explains my thoughts on John and a significant portion of its sayings material where Jesus references himself.
https://discourse.biologos.org/t/john-history-or-reframing/46255/8
I hinted at it above. In the end I don’t profess any certainty about what or who is saved. I only completely disqualify the notion that you have to believe certain facts about a 1-4 year ministry on earth to be saved. It could be different for each person.
I don’t know if everyone ends up in heaven in the end. It’s tough to shake hell even though I would like to very much. But as a proponent of free will, I can’t. In the end, the afterlife isn’t as clear as literalists who use the Bible like an encyclopedia make it out to be. I don’t take it as a certainty that I’ll be judging angels anymore than the 12 apostles will be judging the 12 tribes of Israel.
I’d simply refer you to the the book of James, the semi anti-protestant one that in Luther’s eyes was probably written by a non-Christian Jew. It certainly serves to temper some conceptions of salvation which appear to say “just believe in this and you are saved”. I don’t subscribe to Calvin and other reformers ideas about the certainty of salvation on a personal level for anyone. I’d recommend every single person, “born again” or not, heed Jesus’ advice: “Strive to enter.”
The historical Jesus is far from irrelevant. You misread me. The incarnation of Jesus is the most important event in human history. I only said that belief in his historical revelation is not necessary for everyone for salvation. I sometimes get the impression that some very conservative Christians actually get really upset when they find our their “salvation club” might not be so exclusive. I hope i misread them but I can’t shake that impression. It’s as if they get mad that others can be saved.
Nothing makes knowing the transforming and risen Jesus, the co-eternal word of God, God himself-- unknowable outside of his historical incarnation which lasted a few years. He can reveal himself in any way, shape or form to every and any person on the planet however he chooses. That is his Divine prerogative. Re Geography. There are many people throughout the world toady and history who never heard the Gospel (lived before Christ, babies, remote tribes) or hearing a crappy version of it (believe these facts or go to hell) or living in a culture where your whole life and upbringing teaches you some other religion is true, then it becomes very difficult. It’s not that some people can’t overcome this latter case. That is great for them. But why mandate everyone must do this? To a young person in a Jewish concentration camp. “Christianity” could be synonymous with the “third Reich.” That is not a fair shake. Yes the world is not fair or egalitarian. But the only escape for the “problem of evil” in my mind is that in the end it will be. Denying this is tantamount to denying the goodness of God in my eyes.
Because his true nature was shown on a Roman Cross. That is the heart and soul of Christianity.
And permit me to ask you one question, Ralphie. Do you think babies who die in infancy end up in hell?
Vinnie
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That’s a very New-Testament inspired thought. Far be it from me to disagree. I will add, though, that none of us here (even those who never ever had and still don’t have a bible in their own household) are entirely ignorant of the New Testament. Your knowledge may be second or third hand - but even just from hanging out here - whether as friend or critic, everybody has some knowledge of scripture. It may not all be accurate; it may not all be well-applied or spiritually guided. One might well want to get closer to that particular source for themselves to see if what they hear is born out. Because I’m pretty sure that so-called knowledge of scripture doesn’t guarantee that Spirit-led wisdom is always what issues as a result. We’ve seen that here in spades, I believe. Always good to get as close to the source as you can for yourself. I think I’m agreeing with you in that.
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Here is another good link to a article on why the idea of a person being kept alive eternally just to suffer is misrepresenting scripture.
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Another thing to consider is that those who have never heard the gospel are judged by their conscience. Hearing the gospels as far as I can tell means being taught the gospel by a Christian. They have to understand the actual gospel and then choose to ignore it or accept it.
But those that never truly hear it , even if they grew up in America and ive met 50+ year old men in America in the Bible Belt who have truly never heard the actual gospel.
They heard jesus died for your sins and so on but have never actually sat down with a Christian and spent a few weeks studying the gospel out.
But as for those that never truly heard it seems this is how they are judged.
Romans 2:12-16
New American Standard Bible
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers [e]of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have [h]the Law instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of mankind through Christ Jesus.
I believe that most humans in most societies have a core similar understanding of goodness versus evil. No matter how your nation may treat women, everyone knows that if you force yourself on a woman, or man, you are hurting them. You can tell they don’t want it. Does not matter even if it’s a isolated village in the rainforest or in a bio dome on Mars. Ive never met someone who has not understood the concepts of hate and anger and so on. So it seems those who never truly heard it are judged by their own conscience as Jesus reveals the truth. In my mind I see it metaphorically as if a person is facing himself. If he tries to justify evil the other half calls him out on it. Instead of satan being his accuser it’s himself. It still does not mean perfection but Jesus will still know if that person truly cared about being good or put it away and developed a hard heart.
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No, I don’t. God is just. (I just discovered I thought I answered this, but I didn’t. I began to, but didn’t finish.) “Age of accountability” is a concept that makes sense. We all reach it if we live long enough and become accountable to God for our sins at that point.
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Excellent. One more question. Are they annihilated or can they end up in heaven?
O my. Heaven. God doesn’t want anyone in hell. We can decide to go to hell, but it is The Last Thing God wants.
It is the strangest thing in all of the universe. God has done and is doing everything He can to spare us from hell. We think, somehow, that He doesn’t care if people go to hell. Look at the bloody mess on two rough hewn wood beams and Mary, his mom balling her eyes out uncontrollably, even as He can hear and see her. And I must say, I’m begging you, Begging everyone, from my soul, from my whole heart, DON’T GO THERE! PLEASE! I have teetered on the edge. I know that sounds nuts. But, I vow before GOD ALMIGHTY, hell exists and it is the worst place ever. It is horrible. It is filled with pain and regret and terror and sorrow. It is awful. It is unreal how filthy and disgusting it is. The heat comes from our contempt for ourselves, for wasting our lives, for dying alone. It is the loneliest place. No one has any friends. Just hatred for ourselves. There isn’t a way to hate anyone else. We are consumed with regret, depression, madness, aching, horror. It is a terrible, terrible place. It is being alone with our sadness and disappointment. No joy. No fun. No contentment. No one to talk to. Nothing to live for. No nothing that is good or soothing, no love or kindness or forgiveness. Just me or you on our own with darkness and hurt.
“Because his true nature was shown on a Roman Cross. That is the heart and soul of Christianity.”
That’s what the NT says. Why do you accept that that is true/accurate/historically certain? That’s what I can’t figure out. If that’s true, wouldn’t He ensure we would wind up with other accurate/true/historic information in scripture? Apparently, God made it clear that his son was crucified through what is written in the NT. What about the resurrection and the virgin birth and our need for his forgiveness? IOW, how do we pick and choose what is pertinent for us, but wind up accepting very little within the same enclosed documents that include his death?
Do we know things because of accurate news reporting or because we experience them ourselves?
What about them?
What sort of resurrection do you think it was?
Why should we care if it was a virgin birth or not?
Is forgiveness what we need or repentance?
Why should the same things be important to different people?
Not to me. I don’t believe in it. It is just another ad-hoc fix like annihilationism to a fundamentally flawed idea.
Accountability is not a matter of age but a matter of capability. We are accountable for what we are capable.
So you believe this is a matter of God doing something to people because of their sins? God is running a protection racket then, where we must pay something in order to be saved from the wrath of the mafia godfather?
I don’t think so.
This is a matter of sin doing something to us. You cannot pay for it. You have to get rid of it, and God is offering to help us do that.
He can pay for it. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. He forgives us and cleanses us. Just like He saves us, He forgives us. It is a divine transaction of some kind and it sets us free.
I believe it to be a pillar of the structure upon which Christ established himself–the forgiveness of sin, the cleansing of sin and the recognition on our part that sin is something I must do my utmost not to do, and to be free of. God redeeming mankind is the main, overriding emphasis in the bible, imo. He tells us what He told others after healing them, after forgiving them, Stop sinning.
That deconstructs to all will be well for all forever, so be a decent a human being.
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- Hebrews 12:29. “For our God is a consuming fire.”
- What if, after our death, only God unveiled–a consuming fire–awaits us? In that case, after death, there’s only heaven; which would, of course, be “hell” if you don’t want to be there.
- Who wouldn’t want to “be in heaven”? IMO, folks who–like Adam and Eve–see their own nakedness, try to cover it up, and hide.
Sounds like the ultimate in evil religion. Invent a god who pays for your privilege/indulgence to do evil to other people. Does that explain the Christian history of murdering, enslaving, and exploiting people around the world?
So you believe in blood magic, human sacrifice, and necromancy then? Do you believe in cannibalism too – that you get power from eating human flesh and drinking blood?
The God I read about in the Bible has no taste for blood or religion for that matter (Isaiah chapter 1). He just wants us to stop doing evil, to seek justice, oppose oppression, and help those in need. So why does Hebrews 9:22 and Leviticus 17:11 say that, if there is no blood magic or any desire on the part of God for blood? It is because of the perversity on the part of sinful human beings who will not repent until they see how their sins are hurting innocent people. It is just like John chapter 6, which is not about Jesus promoting the practice of cannibalism, but trying to get people out of their literal, magical, and materialistic way of looking at things to see a spiritual meaning in His words.
Jesus forgave without any woo woo, abra cadabra, song and dance or blood magic. Just what I would expect of any decent person. Forgiveness is easy. Repentance is the hard part. What does it take to get people to repent of the evil they do to others and themselves?
The Christ I believe in was God who made Himself a man. He didn’t need any magical woo woo to “establish Himself” – certainly not any human devised dogma to give themselves indulgences for sin.
Why? Because a boogey man devil-god will get you if you don’t, or because it will destroy you. I don’t believe in any gods made in the image of devils or mafia godfathers who have to rule by fear and threats because they don’t have any real power to speak of except what they can find in evil, violence, and destruction.
I certainly agree with that. I don’t agree is that the Bible is teaching necromancy, blood magic, or indulgences for sin.
Yes it is all about helping us to stop doing the things which are destroying us.
So is there a place or way to hide or not?
So you have suggested that you believe dead infants and small children aren’t automatically hell-bound and can go to heaven without professing faith in and accepting the historical death and resurrection of Jesus in this life. Seems to me that we agree then. You cannot argue that the only way to heaven is through belief in the incarnated Jesus in this life and then claim there is another way to heaven. So we then agree there is hope for those who aren’t born again Christins and there is salvation/heaven potential for those who do not profess faith in the historical Jesus narrative in this life. Excellent.
“Can we maintain that awareness of God’s historical incarnation is necessary for salvation and also hold that at least some of those who lack such historical knowledge are saved? Logically, one cannot hold that p is necessary for q, and also hold that q can be achieved without p. One must clear-headedly hold on to this logical truth and not allow sentiment to fuzzy up our thinking on such matters.” The Historical Christ & The Jesus of Faith, p 107