To what extent does the Son submit to the Father? How does that relate to marriage roles?

[Relates (Roger A. Sawtelle)]

@Dale

Because he loves them and because of enlightened self-interest. They are not mutually exclusive… he is looking forward to seeing the resulting delight and to share a hug. That’s terrible, right? And so selfish.

There is no “and” here. If he loves the child and wants to please him/her, he might bring a gift, but he does not have to bring a gift to prove his love. God loves us. Jesus did not have to prove God’s love, but He did on the Cross and by the Resurrection.

[quote=“Dale, post:73, topic:47283”]
I guess you don’t understand that enlightened self-interest is not selfish nor does it imply selfishness.
[/quote]\

Says who? Enlightened self-interest is not love and is not from God. Self-interest, even enlightened self-interest, is by definition about self and not about God.

This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters. 1John 3:16

Jesus Christ’s death was in His own self-interest?

@Daniel_Fisher

When (if?) you “obey” (i.e., submit to) the posted speed limit on the road, have you in fact lost your free will by so doing?

If the Speed Limit is 65 and you go exactly 65, regardless of the traffic and other circumstances, then you are submitting your will to the sign, but most people travel around 65, probably a little faster depending on the circumstances because they agree with the general idea of the sign, not because they have surrendered their will to it.

Willful submission is still giving up control over one’s will, even if it is voluntary. Coming to agreement is accepting something even if one has some questions.

@Mervin_Bitikofer

@Relates

Love does not involve submission to others.

@Mervin_Bitikofer, “Um … yes. Yes it does. Willing - even joyful submission.”

With all due respect Jesus Christ Stood Up Against the World by dying on the Cross. He did Not submit. He did not even submit by opposing evil with evil.

@GJDS

so we would understand His actions at multiple levels, all showing perfect freedom and love.

Thank you @GJDS. Freedom is not submission. We are called to be free as Jesus was free, responding in Love and not to submit to evil. The morality of Jesus is Love and not self-interest, enlightened or otherwise.

@Dale, you cannot build an entire theology around one proof text Hebrew 12:2, even if the meaning of that text were very clear, which it is not.

@Mervin_Bitikofer

It was God’s will that the son stay true and faithful,

True and faithful here means loving, not obedient. The Son is not obedient to the Father. They are equal.

@Dale

@Relates

The Christian motive is Love, not enlightened self interest .

Both motives are Christian and coexist side by side with no conflict.

Who says? You?

@Dale

Recommended reading: Future Grace . It’s about what motivates us.

@Dale , Thank you for this citation so we can at last see where you are coming from.

The book has many great reviews, but I noticed that they do not really say what it is about, which is a problem. Then I noticed that the author is John Piper, one of the prophets of ESS, neo-Arianism. That made everything fall into place, the absence of a theological basis for enlightened self-interest, the submission of Jesus Christ, and the replacement of Love as motive. They all fit into the Gospel of neo-Arianism, also known as Eternal Submission of the Son.