Ok no problem.
intelligent design seems the best explanation for a creation that is ordered and relies on a set of narrow parameters for existence. Also DNA is information code. That only gets you into desim.
Christianity get you into a personal relationship with the creator Through the revelation of Christ in History.
Right now I am most interested in the metaphysics of how God created the universe through Jesus.
That is what big bang cosmology states. The singularity was a supernatural thing/state because it is not natural in any way.
Now it’s easier to dive into something to dissect though it’s still very ambiguous. But it’s still far too big. You mentioned ID is the best explanation in your opinion for a creation that is ordered. Two questions on this.
Why is ID a better explanation than life is suitable on earth because all of those other things came into place one after the other resulting in conditions favorable for life naturally?
What’s an example of something that is so fine tuned that the answer is the supernatural, not the natural?
Because a supernatural origin is the explanation of physics. It is physics/ math and cosmology that is suggesting a supernatural origin. You don’t need a bible just understand what the singularity is.
From the, spacless, timeless, unified, eternal force that created all things came you and I. That’s what is being proposed by science… now the only thing to ask is… is the spacless, timeless, unified, eternal force of good? remember our moral intuition is baked into the cosmos. If you agree with all living cells that it is better to exists than not then the singularity must be good.
I run this argument in a dialog format if you can follow or are interested, I posted this once before
The gaps in scientific knowledge will always be there - human curiosity and engineering genius cooperate to narrow those gaps, time and time again. The study of abiogenesis, for instance, has narrowed many such; the most likely Necessary Sequence of Events becomes more detailed and specific year after year.
G*D created time, space, matter, and light all at one go (Genesis 1:1,3) and Creation is self-consistent. Things that appear to be beyond our ability to understand merely appear that way, in the material realm. As of "Let there be light! (see how the opening verses of David’s Psalm 19 foretell the age of Astronomy, when we finally learn to read the wisdom of the night skies) the universe was meticulously designed to have RNA, abiogenesis, evolution, and DNA baked onto the design.
Only G*D can tell us how soul and flesh knit together in the womb; soul has no material component for science to study. Since G*D knows every word will ever speak, turns bad into good, hears prayer, and responds in ways we cannot foresee, counts the hairs on our heads, and showed up in the flesh as Son, Jesus, to absolve us from the blood guilt of our sinful natures, yes indeed G*D plays an active role. But no one can observe that happening in real time.
Science proposes it, A supernatural singularity created the universe. The definition of the singularity; Spacless, timeless, no parts, infinite density, eternal unified force, transcending all understanding or measure. That thing caused the universe to be.
By definition that is a supernatural thing. All natural things, exists in space, In time, have parts, multiple forces ect.
But then we discovered chaos theory and fractals, complicating the matter. The tell us, for one thing, that a machine with perfectly predictable behavior cannot exist – thus excluding the Deist’s deity.
He fails to imagine that design can result in freedom – in fact like YEC he’s stuck on the idea that design applies to items but not to systems.
All that the singularity tells us is that there’s something wrong with our understanding, and/or that there is a barrier or phase change beyond what we can observe or imagine. In fact some mathematicians have shown that there is no difference between the state of the universe in the ultimate heat death and the singularity (has something to do with the only thing remaining being photons, which do not experience time).
Chaotic dynamics makes it POSSIBLE for systems to be unpredictable, it DOES NOT make it impossible to make systems predictable!!! This is why predictable systems like machines do exist.
Even a nonlinear system is not necessarily unpredictable. Many are not only predictable but gravitate towards increasingly stable repetitive solutions. In such cases our linear approximations work perfectly. This is why it took us a while to understand what was happening, because most of the time those linear approximations were working just fine. What we learned with chaotic dynamics is that this is not always the case and our linear approximations don’t always work. Take a look at the Mandelbrot set. You have vast areas with no complexity at all. There is only complexity on the borders, where the dependence on the initial conditions requires an infinite precision.
Nonsense. I simply don’t believe that everything is a machine like you do.
This is an interesting statement. How do YEC demonstrate that? I ask because i do believe that design applies to both…especially given that if God created us in His own image and, if our Creator also designs systems, why would we not also do the same?
Isnt the Genesis account of creation also considered a narrative of systematic design? (with a normal usage of language and comprehension, It certainly reads that way to me)
No, it’s an adaptation of the Egyptian creation story that shows that Egypt’s gods were created as YHWH-Elohim’s servants and tools, while announcing that humans are the living ‘statues’ of YHWH-Elohim in the temple He made that we call earth, and that His conquest over chaos and darkness didn’t require a battle the way all the other gods’ stories did because darkness, too – the period between evening and morning – is also His tool.
And Tom Clancy’s novels read the same way – by all the criteria you’ve given, they must be considered to be history; are you ready to accept them as that? or are you ready to re-examine your presuppositions about your ability to tell what kind of literature you’re looking at without bothering to actually study the matter?
I don’t think it’s merely a disagreement of opinions.
You hold to the faith that science somehow indicates that supernatural play is at work in singularities and I see that we simply have a gap in our understanding of quantum gravity. When I see a gap I just don’t feel the need to fill it up with God or magic.
Same as for how to some it seems like surely it must be something supernatural to give a spark of life to chemicals. How could abiogenesis occur without a god. However, that gap is closing every year. We are getting closer and closer and have several hypothesis that can potentially work. In another decade or two, abiogenesis may be a standard subject taught in public schools just like the theory of evolution is.
What would you define as supernatural? I saw a partial definition above, but it seemed incomplete. Do you recommend a scientific one? Would it necessarily be associated with faith or intelligence? Thanks.
Good question.
Mi is under the illusion that all unknown things are simply a lack of human understanding. He does not have a category of transcendence in which to categorise anything. He believes supernaturalism is magic, irrational thus unreal.
If I make this statement “A circle is a infinitely sided polygon” what have I stated?
This statement is a transcendental statement. It is a supernatural statement, not a majical statement . It is irrational yet real. Infinity is irrational(unknowable) yet sides are countable (rational). In the above statement they coexist and circles are real objects.
Mi seems to think that eventually humanity will be able count the sides of a circle.
The original human deception is
“Ye shall be as god, KNOWING…” This temptation places creature intellect on par with the transcendent creator.
A supernatural state is a non natural state. The singularity by all definition is a irrational yet real state. Nothing can be measured, known or observed. All things have collapsed into one, even time and space don’t exist. That is a supernatural state.
Godel prove this mathematically. There are statements that are true but unprovable. No amount of time or human intellectual advancement will ever overcome this problem. this was all understood years ago.
No amount of Human intellectual advancement will ever comprehend the value of PI. This is a great video. 1:06:16 there are some truths that are totally independent from the axiomatic systems from which they come"
Only those of us who understand the limitations of science and are not “fooled” into thinking science knows all.
All science can do is show connections. It cannot prove the method they got there. Science cannot "see " God, so it does not know if God is involved or not.
Science cannot go back and watch the creation of life, or the exact developments. It can only “guess” from what evidence it can see. You can call it deduction if you like, but it still means the same.
The evolutionary process has only demonstrated limited abilities, it has never been able to show the kind of changes needed to change a single cell into a human.
