Rom 1:19-20
“since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.”
Rom 2:12
“All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.”
I think is is pretty clear that there was sin before the law (even Adam’s law). There was sin since creation of the world. I would even say Lucifer sinned well before Adam.
I think Rom 2:14&15 would agree with that.
Vs 14&15
“(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)”
From a materialist view, it sounds like it wasn’t. But we know God’s will is perfect. So just as a child born with no legs is perfect, I guess the same could be said about a sinful Adam. This is the “perfection” we will receive in heaven.
Which opens another can of worm, like how Jesus’ glorified/resurrected body still had holes in Him. If we die and are cremated, will we be a pile of ashes? Will the “perfect” child still not have legs? That is for another thread…
Excellent analogy! I was trying to think of one, but couldn’t come up with one, thanks!
To take it a bit further, when Jesus lived His life without littering, He was invited onto God’s property. And all who trust in Jesus, are also invited onto God’s property. Though we still litter, Jesus picks up our trash constantly, so God sees us as if we are not littering, nor ever have.
So we try our best not to sin out of thanks for being invited. And we are ‘forcing’ Jesus to pick up after us every time we sin. Though I use forcing for lack of better term, but Jesus is willingly picking it up for, out of His love for us. He willingly took on and takes on our sin on the cross.
And no man can’t not litter by his own strength. Only God can’t. That is why we need, as the OP said, the second birth, or life in God, or God in us, to not litter.
So all humans are born off of God’s property, we all litter daily. Though Adam trespassed on God’s property and frequently littered, it wasnt held against him. But at some point in Adams life, the “no trespassing sign was placed”. Which God didn’t see fit to remove Adam, till he littered.
But God wanted to be with man, so He set some laws and customs. God would leave His property, to be with a still littering man in the temple. If certain laws were followed, they could be with God on human property.
But no man can be on God’s property until invited. Jesus invites all who believe and want to be with God. And I would guess (though there is very little scripture specifically addressing children, mentally challenged, remote people etc) that some might be invited?
We know that God is merciful, and Abraham’s faith was credited as righteousness. Abraham wasn’t a Christian, or a Jew. But many believe he is with God.
But I think the more “traditional fall” narrative, would say that Adam was born on God’s property, and didn’t litter until he was told not to, and then he did…in which case he was kicked off his property. Which the more I read scriptures…doesn’t seem to fit with that.
If someone was perfect, how could they sin? Clearly, they weren’t perfect, because they did sin. I don’t know why this is taught so adamantly.
Adam was naked and didn’t care, or know it. Adam littered, and he didn’t care. But when he ate from the tree of knowledge, it allowed him to realize what he was, a littering/naked human, and was ashamed. Putting clothes on and hiding is like trying to run around and pick all of that litter. Kind of like ignorance is bliss. Adam had no problem being a littering trespassing guy, until he knew he was or knew God had a problem with that.
Gen 3:10&11 “He answered, “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid. And he said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from? ”“
Like the signs were always there, but they were blind, and the fruit gave them eyesight, to see the sign and all the litter they had done.
It’s like God told them, who told you you were trespassing and littering, you were blind, did you eat from that tree of eyesight I told you not to eat from?
Like He created us as blind littering man, just waiting for us to see all our litter and trespassing signs, so Jesus could come to save us, and live through us and stop littering and be invited in.
Rom 8:22 “We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.”
This says that the whole point of creation and this earth and humans, was to show His love, through Jesus so God may be glorified in it all.
We were created as littering blind man , who would be rescued by Jesus, invited to His property and eventually be given life through God in us so that we litter no more, and He will receive all the glory and every knee will bow and tongue will acknowledge God.
I hope I didn’t butcher your analogy too bad @Mervin_Bitikofer
The death of materialism from @Reggie_O_Donoghue
Which post 2 would suggest that humans share some parts of the mind of God. Like animals, humans trespassed and littered. It wasn’t until man ate from the fruit and had his eyes opened that we became different than animals, we received a bit of the ‘mind of God’. But we couldn’t harness that power, we need God in us to handle it. So we were prevented from eating from the tree of life, so that we didn’t live forever, so that we could be flawed and realize we need to rely on God to control our/His mind and so that we could one day die, and receive a body that can handle it, a body with the spirit of God in us to control the mind of God in us.