The transcendent: Is is all in our heads?

In response to an aspect of my last question concerning spiritual things and entities, I have been thinking a great deal about our own perception of these. The field of neuroscience and evolutionary studies have shown that there is so much about our lived experience that traces to our “hidden brain,” as science journalist Shankar Vedantam puts it. People in different parts of the world have different, albeit “real-feeling” experiences with God(s).

I mention Shankar Vedantam because he was interviewed on a podcast I like called “No Small Endeavor.” It was here I discovered that he has his own podcast where he talks about the many activities of our brains that evade our notice—biases, habits, you name it. I found a transcript for one of these episodes called “Creating God.” Here’s the link for anyone interested:

https://www.npr.org/2018/07/16/629616978/creating-god

The basic message here is that religion came about because it was useful for things, like coping with struggles that arose and building trust in groups. We have said that religion may have evolved with us, and some find no problem with seeing God in that process. But I do think, as I do with most things, that such claims have implications. As sources like this one imply, it makes me wonder: Why are there so many various experiences if it was guided by THE one, true God?

Some people, like the guy interviewed in the transcript, find this to be sufficient evidence to leave faith behind and call it false, while still acknowledging its usefulness in the present day. For those of you that have thought through this question, what has it led you to think about the nature of spiritual experiences, religion, and our own confidence in what we perceive?

(Comparing my questions to those asked by past contributors on this forum, I can tell who was going through the “deconstruction” process :joy:. It gives me hope that my faith can make it out alive.)

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Thank you! I really like Shankar Vedantam. It’s a thoughtful post.

And does this work even if we believe it is just a fantasy coping mechanism?

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I mean, it has been shown to work. I don’t know how to discern if that makes the claims in said religion true to reality or just, as you said, a fantasy.

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No I mean does it work when the persons it is supposedly working on (i.e. helping) believe it to be just a fantasy coping mechanism?

Because I don’t think so.

I think actually believing it is real is part of what makes it work.

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Ah, my bad. I suppose that is a fair point, though any deception would be of no use unless it was believed.

Religions claim different things—some people have used the illustration of “blindfolded people feeling an elephant,” but there does seem to be a very broad variation in religious practice and statements of belief. It may “work” when we believe it, but how do we know what of it is a true representation of who God is, what God wants from us, and who we are?

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I kind of understand your perspective on the nature of religion being subjective, and I can agree with you in that sense in areas. But I don’t know if it accounts for the numerous conflicting experiences about the reality of God very well. Is God’s revelation in contradiction with Him? I feel like, while truth and God can be represented by more than one thing, they can’t really be in alignment with everyone’s claims, right?

Oh, you’ve heard of him! Maybe he’s more known than I thought.

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Sure… but I think the search for certainty is a wild goose chase where the geese are just pure illusions. So… why waste my time when life remains to be actually lived.

Sounds interesting.

As mentioned numerous times I fall into the boat where I do think it’s most likely not true. I see absolutely no evidence to support anything supernatural from any god, magical powers regardless if it’s through prayer or spells, or crystals, or ancestors and no angels or demons. I see no evidence for any of the supernatural claims in the bible. No evidence that Jesus rose from the dead, turned water into wine, or walked across water, or Peter’s shadow healing people or Moses.

All evidence I see points towards billions of years of evolution that happened on this planet, and potentially on millions of others so far away we can’t ever reach them, and seemingly we don’t see any proof that any of these animals including those that survived as a group millions of years longer than ours having been helped supernaturally. For a fact, almost all of them are extinct. I see no evidence of any gods helping the dozens of other human species that existed and have went extinct. With our current species, I don’t see God helping all the immigrants being persecuted, all the people dying in war, all the kids with incurable cancers and so on. And no this is not a question about evil, but that there is seemingly no supernatural intervention. Almost all humans die from trauma or diseases and not peacefully in their sleep. Everyone of us here will most likely die from something horrific happening to us or slowly as a disease eats away from us. The same for Muslims, Buddhists, atheists. Same for Japanese, Chinese, German, Iranian, and so on. What god helped all the indigenous people.

We literally have a billionaire pedophile group that has been operating for decades and seemingly facing absolutely no consequences in almost every nation.

Additionally, I see no God helping the billions of pigs, chickens, cows, tuna and so on. They are all dying horror of deaths under as children compared to their natural lifespans just because animal abusers like the taste of their bodies.

You know the greatest blessing I’ve seen God give us recently was Covid. So many of our species died but more importantly wildlife thrived. Nature did better than ever in recent human history than when we were the ones being “caged” up. Though domestic abuse rose. 7 million humans roughly died from covid. The average human eats 7,500 animals across the course of their life. Most Covid deaths were older so even if we use only 25% that’s roughly 13,125,000,000 livestock animals saved. Not to mention the rebounding of wildlife. Not to mention all the animals those people kill with glue traps, rolled up newspapers and so on.

So i just see no evidence anywhere for anything supernatural. But what i do have is a few personal experiences that seemed to come from God. Almost everyone I talk to from all around the world seems to have little stories of things that seem to be magical. Not just Christians. I have talked with tons of atheists and after being extremely open with them like I try to be in these posts they have often shared moments in their life where something miraculous seems to have happened. Things that seem magical and that they basically just placed in a box because outlier events that probably have a naturalistic explanation does not change the facts they see when looking elsewhere.

A vet who’s an atheist that honestly kind of hates religion recently told me that out of their whole life there is only one incident that seemed magical to them. Though it’s not a happy story so much. Maybe. He had a dog that he loved. Had the dog for 9 years. Five years ago while driving through Texas coming back to Alabama he was involved in a hit and run where a truck slammed into his car. Turned out the truck was reported missing weeks before. It totaled his car and knocked him out. He woke up in the hospital. Almost lost his leg. Luckily not his hands or arms and so he can still be a veterinarian. Anyways one of the the first things he asked was about his dog. There was no dog when he was there. As soon as he was able to leave he did and was driven back to the spot of the wreck by a friend. Never found the dog. 2 years ago he was going back on the same trip. His dad lives in Texas. He was back along the same stretch of road and thought he saw his dog run across the road down a trail. He pulled over. He went down the trail and heard barking. This was the same road but like 40 miles further down. He said about 29 minutes into walking and calling he heard the barking again and realized it was coming from a house and was going to turn back but say a blue collar with a stainless steel star off about 5 feet into the bushes. Same as what his dog had and it was his dog’s collar. So he went to the house and knocked on the door. A elderly couple opened it and he asked them if they found a dog that was a black German shepherd and they said yeah. He was invited in and saw his dog. It was his dog. His dog was still alive but sick. He showed them pictures, showed them the collar, and talked with them. He got his dog and went to the nearest vet and it was chipped and was indeed his dog. He brought his dog back home and had him for a few days before the dog passed away. His dog was in not great shape and older and no way was that his dog running and the couple even said they had the dog inside for hours. So even thought he is an atheist, and does not believe in the supernatural he can’t help but feel that the event was weird. It actually made him he said far less hateful towards religion. Though he still thinks the world would be better without it and he cried while we were talking. He could be lying. He could be telling the truth. He could have just seen a similar looking dog. He has no idea and neither do I and so he just kind of keeps it mostly to himself.

So for me, those are the reasons why I still believe. Even if it’s a delusion, it makes the strangeness of life seem better categorized.

So I have faith, even though I am not holding my breath that it’s true.

For me the strongest power of religion is hope in a more beautiful world that seems unattainable but we cling to that hope and see sparks of it, enough that we believe it can engulf the world. So I cling to it. Instead of thinking violence is the way to liberate the world. Violence towards those who hunt animals, eat animals, do experiments on animals like many of my brothers and sisters in veganism do. There are many animal rights and eco terrorists. I don’t hate them for what they do. I understand why they do it. I understand that if hope fails, if love fails, that may be the answer one day. But for now I choose to instead believe that hope and love is the way. That reaching out to the next generation is the way. To show how tasty plants can be. To show how strong and healthy you can be on them. To highlight native plants and wildlife and protest circuses, breeders and so on. This is the way to go. Same as I don’t support the majority of the humans living in poverty and suffering as billionaires live lavishly should not attack them and pull them apart. Instead we should vote. I see how faith shaped the lives of so many. So many people like King, Ghandi and dozens of others. Hundreds of others. So I think faith is good. I think that the reason why king believed in everyone being united was not the evidence he saw around him but the faith and the hope in the story of God. Same for Ghandi.

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The illustration used refers to John Godfey Saxe’s poem “The Blind Men and The Elephant”:

It was six men of Indostan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind.

The First approached the Elephant,
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl:
“God bless me! but the Elephant
Is very like a wall!”

The Second, feeling of the tusk,
Cried: “Ho! what have we here
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me ’tis mighty clear
This wonder of an Elephant
Is very like a spear!”

The Third approached the animal,
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
Thus boldly up and spake:
“I see,” quoth he, “the Elephant
Is very like a snake!”

The Fourth reached out his eager hand,
And felt about the knee.
“What most this wondrous beast is like
Is mighty plain,” quoth he;
“’Tis clear enough the Elephant
Is very like a tree!”

The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
Said: “E’en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
Deny the fact who can,
This marvel of an Elephant
Is very like a fan!”

The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Than, seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope,
“I see,” quoth he, “the Elephant
Is very like a rope!”

And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!

The usual moral drawn from this is that different people (or religions) are grasping different parts of the same underlying reality. But notice something: the analogy only works if there really is an elephant there to be perceived. If instead we imagine the blind men arguing about a flying cow then the same pattern—confident, conflicting descriptions—would not suggest partial truth. It would suggest that they are all mistaken about the object itself. It tells us what follows if there is a real object being imperfectly perceived. It does not tell us whether such an object exists in the first place.

One way to respond to conflicting claims about a supposed reality is to conclude that there is no underlying reality at all. In that sense, positions like Christ mythicism function differently from disagreements about what Jesus was—they remove the “elephant” rather than offering another description of it. That move may be driven by historical arguments, but it also has the effect of sidestepping the question of whether the object of belief is real.

I’m not aware of comparably well-known movements called Muhammad mythicism or Gautama mythicism. With Moses there is certainly major debate over historicity, but even there the discussion is usually framed in terms of legend, memory, and historical uncertainty rather than a named “mythicist” movement comparable to Christ mythicism.

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Right, but it seems that participants on this forum don’t think that the answer requires concluding that there is no underlying reality to the spiritual claims just because they are diverse. My question is how they understand spiritual experiences as legitimate interactions with the divine, not just a useful delusion, given the diversity.

Because I find myself trying to make sense of a confusing world while holding onto what I find important—that being, God. Maybe the question seems silly to you, and maybe it is indeed silly considering the other things I could be doing in life… but making sense of these things feels important to figuring out how to live that life.

I think thats why people like me that have come to these forums asking the same questions. They feel like a crucial part of figuring out our worldview so we CAN live according to something substantial.

NOT AT ALL! I love the questions. Spent most of my life studying and thinking about them.

It is certainty which I don’t believe in, NOT the search for answers itself! Seems to me, it is certainty (and the answers pretending to certainty) which tries to make the search for answers to go away and disappear – the kind of reasoning which says “because God said so.”

So… doesn’t mean I don’t have my own answers. I have plenty. But I don’t pretend to certainty. I go for the answers I like and don’t pretend otherwise.

Oh yes. But some things you have to choose. Because while there are many things where what you want makes no difference at all, life requires you to make a stand on what you want. It is part of the very nature of life itself.

Definitely! Always. Because no matter how many answers you do find. There are always more questions to consider.