The singularity of Scripture

Faith & Science Conversation
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I have been in a dialogue about Scripture, specifically whether the RCC can legitimately claim definitive authority on what it says, We do not have to go into details here.
The open question is twofold

  1. Does Scripture have to have a specific and definitive meaning

  2. Does anyone have the authority to claim such a meaning

Considering the fact that there are many approaches to Scripture from academic, textural, and contextual to Cultural and pure faith I would suggest that such a claim would be hard to justify. I have even suggested that to claim supreme and definitive understanding might be foolish.

As someone who does not think there is a definitive view or interpretation I would be interested to see where others stand.

Richard

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Well, the original authors of scripture certainly meant to communicate something specific when they wrote it so I’ve always taken the route that we should try to understand first what they were trying to say rather than later interpreters like the Roman Catholic Church. I think the Ante Nicene fathers are also a good witness to the New Testament at least because they were closest to the Apostles and their students that produced them, though I also think they translated a lot of Jewish concepts into Greek and I worry some things may have been muddled in translation.

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  • Richard, how would you apply your statement that there is no “definitive view or interpretation” to Acts 4:12? There are certainly questions about the scope and implications of the verse, but is it nevertheless possible to say definitively that Peter is asserting that salvation is found in Jesus Christ and in no one else?
  • Acts 4:12

KJ21

Neither is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved.”

ASV

And in none other is there salvation: for neither is there any other name under heaven, that is given among men, wherein we must be saved.

AMP

And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among people by which we must be saved [for God has provided the world no alternative for salvation].”

AMPC

And there is salvation in and through no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by and in which we must be saved.

BRG

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

CSB

There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to people by which we must be saved.”

CSBA

There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to people by which we must be saved.’

CEB

Salvation can be found in no one else. Throughout the whole world, no other name has been given among humans through which we must be saved.”

CJB

There is salvation in no one else! For there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by whom we must be saved!”

CEV

Only Jesus has the power to save! His name is the only one in all the world that can save anyone.

DARBY

And salvation is in none other, for neither is there another name under heaven which is given among men by which we must be saved.

DLNT

And there is no salvation in any other, for neither is there another name under heaven having been given among people by which we must be saved”.

DRA

Neither is there salvation in any other. For there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved.

ERV

Jesus is the only one who can save people. His name is the only power in the world that has been given to save anyone. We must be saved through him!”

EASY

Then Peter said, ‘Only Jesus can save people. There has never been another person in the world that could do this. God has not given any other man the authority to save us.’

EHV

“There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to people by which we must be saved.”

ESV

And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

ESVUK

And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

EXB

·Jesus is the only One who can save people [L Salvation is found/present in no one else]. ·No one else [L No other name given to people] ·in the world [L under heaven] is able to save us.”

GNV

Neither is there salvation in any other: for among men there is given none other Name under heaven, whereby we must be saved.

GW

No one else can save us. Indeed, we can be saved only by the power of the one named Jesus and not by any other person.”

GNT

Salvation is to be found through him alone; in all the world there is no one else whom God has given who can save us.”

HCSB

There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to people, and we must be saved by it.”

ICB

Jesus is the only One who can save people. No one else in the world is able to save us.”

ISV

There is no salvation by anyone else, for there is no other name under heaven given among people by which we must be saved.”

PHILLIPS

In no one else can salvation be found. For in all the world no other name has been given to men but this, and it is by this name that we must be saved!”

JUB

Neither is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men in which we can be saved.

KJV

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

AKJV

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

LSB

And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”

LEB

And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven that is given among people by which we must be saved.”

TLB

There is salvation in no one else! Under all heaven there is no other name for men to call upon to save them.”

MSG

With that, Peter, full of the Holy Spirit, let loose: “Rulers and leaders of the people, if we have been brought to trial today for helping a sick man, put under investigation regarding this healing, I’ll be completely frank with you—we have nothing to hide. By the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, the One you killed on a cross, the One God raised from the dead, by means of his name this man stands before you healthy and whole. Jesus is ‘the stone you masons threw out, which is now the cornerstone.’ Salvation comes no other way; no other name has been or will be given to us by which we can be saved, only this one.”

MEV

There is no salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

MOUNCE

And salvation is in no one else, · for there is no other name under · heaven · given among men by which we must be saved.”

NOG

No one else can save us. Indeed, we can be saved only by the power of the one named Yeshua and not by any other person.”

NABRE

There is no salvation through anyone else, nor is there any other name under heaven given to the human race by which we are to be saved.”

NASB

And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among mankind by which we must be saved.”

NASB1995

And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”

NCB

There is no salvation in anyone else, nor is there any other name under heaven given to men by which we can be saved.”

NCV

Jesus is the only One who can save people. No one else in the world is able to save us.”

NET

And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among people by which we must be saved.”

NIRV

You can’t be saved by believing in anyone else. God has given people no other name under heaven that will save them.”

NIV

Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

NIVUK

Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.’

NKJV

Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

NLV

There is no way to be saved from the punishment of sin through anyone else. For there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we can be saved.”

NLT

There is salvation in no one else! God has given no other name under heaven by which we must be saved.”

NMB

Neither is there salvation in any other, nor yet also is there any other name given to mankind in which we can be saved.

NRSVA

There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among mortals by which we must be saved.’

NRSVACE

There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among mortals by which we must be saved.’

NRSVCE

There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among mortals by which we must be saved.”

NRSVUE

“There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among mortals by which we must be saved.”

NTFE

Rescue won’t come from anybody else! There is no other name given under heaven and among humans by which we must be rescued.”

OJB

“And there is no Yeshu’at Eloheinu in any other, for there is no other Shem under Shomayim that has been given among Bnei Adam, by which it is necessary for you to be spared [the Mishpat Hashem in the Yom HaDin].”

RGT

“Nor is there salvation in any other. For among men there is given no other Name under heaven whereby we must be saved.”

RSV

And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

RSVCE

And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

TLV

There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved!”

VOICE

There is no one else who can rescue us, and there is no other name under heaven given to any human by whom we may be rescued.

WEB

There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven that is given among men, by which we must be saved!”

WE

No one else can save us. Of all the people in the world, God chose him to save us. It is by him we must be saved.’

WYC

and health is not in any other. For neither other name under heaven is given to men, in which it behooveth us to be made safe.

YLT

and there is not salvation in any other, for there is no other name under the heaven that hath been given among men, in which it behoveth us to be saved.’

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:persevering_face:

One specific verse. Is that the best you can do to derail me?

I am talking in general terms not specifics.

At this rate we won’t finish 'til after Christmas (2030)

Richard

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The devil is in the details. Generic platitudes aren’t worth discussing to me. How does your model of scripture handle x, y and z. Boots on the ground.

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  • Not a derailment, Richard. It’s a test case for the general proposition you raised. If Acts 4:12 has a sufficiently definite meaning that we can say what Peter is asserting, then the answer to your first question cannot simply be no. General propositions have to accommodate specific cases.
  • You want something meatier to ignore? How about this: Not the Same God: Is the Qur’an Allah the LORD God of the Bible?
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I have quoted, in the previous topic, dozens of verses that contradicted your own interpretation. So don’t act like one verse or 30 or 50 makes a difference to you.

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So if one verse or passage can be shown to have a singular or specific meaning all of Scripture must. Is that the mentality?

Richard

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  • Whoa, Richard. :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes: That’s quite a leap, from my offering one counterexample to your attributing to me a claim about all of Scripture. I made no such claim. One counterexample to a generalization doesn’t establish the opposite generalization; it shows that the original generalization needs qualification.
  • If you can’t handle one what’s the probability that you’ll work through many?
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And how many examples of contested passages or verses do I have to present to negate this line of argument?

Richard

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  • At this point I almost need a roulette wheel to guess which contested verse you’re going to produce. :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes: But being contested isn’t the same thing as being indeterminate. People can disagree about a proposition even when the proposition itself is perfectly clear.
  • So before we start counting contested verses, why not answer the one already on the table: Is Peter’s assertion in Acts 4:12 sufficiently definite for us to know what he is claiming?
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The obvious one is 2 Tim 3: 16
Virtually all of Genesis 1-11
Matt 7;1
1 Cor 6: 2
Romans 14
Romans 3:28
John 14:6
Lk 22: 19
1 Cor 11: 24-5
Matt 27:51

Do I need go on?

So let’s get away from individual verses and passages.

Where there is disagreement, whose authority holds? Who declares the right meaning, (assuming there is one).

How can anyone declare that there is a single view of Scripture, let alone that they have it.

Richard

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  • Richard, you’re still moving from the proposition I’m defending to a much larger one that I’m not defending. I have not claimed that there is “a single view of Scripture,” nor that every passage has one singular, uncontested interpretation.
  • You asked how many contested passages you would have to produce to negate my argument, and you’ve now produced a list. But which one of them negates, modifies, or changes the meaning of Acts 4:12? I don’t see that any of them does. In fact, John 14:6 appears to reinforce it: “No one comes to the Father except through me.”
  • Nor is “contested” synonymous with “indeterminate.” Genesis 1–11 may be contested over genre, historicity, chronology, and interpretation; 2 Timothy 3:16 over the nature and extent of inspiration; Romans 3:28 over justification; the Last Supper passages over the Eucharist. The existence of those disputes does not establish that Acts 4:12 therefore lacks a sufficiently definite meaning.
  • So my original question remains: Does Acts 4:12 have a sufficiently definite meaning that we can say what Peter is asserting? If not, what in the text—or elsewhere in Scripture—prevents us from doing so?
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  • Returning to the OP:
    • “As someone who does not think there is a definitive view or interpretation…”
    • That is the general proposition to which I offered Acts 4:12 as a test case. I have never argued that every verse of Scripture has one singular, uncontested interpretation, nor that there is one comprehensive “single view of Scripture.”
    • Richard then asked how many contested passages he would have to produce to negate my argument and he listed 2 Timothy 3:16, Genesis 1–11, Matthew 7:1, 1 Corinthians 6:2, Romans 14, Romans 3:28, John 14:6, Luke 22:19, 1 Corinthians 11:24–25, and Matthew 27:51.
    • But none of those passages negates, modifies, or changes what Peter asserts in Acts 4:12. In fact, John 14:6 appears to reinforce it: “No one comes to the Father except through me.”
    • The fact that interpreters disagree about Genesis 1–11, the meaning and implications of theopneustos in 2 Timothy 3:16, justification in Romans 3:28, or the Eucharistic texts establishes that biblical interpretation is sometimes contested. I don’t dispute that. But “contested” is not the same thing as “indeterminate”.
    • And the same question can be asked of the passages on his own list. Does John 14:6 have enough determinate meaning that we can say what Jesus is asserting? Does Romans 3:28 have enough determinate meaning that we can say what Paul is asserting—even while Catholics and Protestants dispute its theological implications? Does Matthew 7:1 actually communicate something that we can understand well enough to invoke it in an argument about judging others?
    • So I am not asking who possesses an infallible interpretation of all Scripture. I am asking something considerably more basic: “Does Scripture communicate propositions with sufficiently determinate meanings that we can sometimes say what its authors are asserting and distinguish a sound interpretation from an unsound one?”
    • If the answer is yes, then the original statement that there is no “definitive view or interpretation” needs qualification. If the answer is no, then I don’t understand how any of us—including Richard—can appeal to Scripture in support of what we believe it teaches.
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  • Either Scripture has sufficiently determinate meaning that interpretations can be evaluated as better or worse, right or wrong—in which case disagreement does not establish your original proposition—or it does not, in which case your own interpretations cannot function as corrections of anyone else’s.
  • You cannot use the indeterminacy of Scripture to disqualify other people’s claims to correct interpretation while continuing to make corrective claims about Scripture yourself. Or you can, but you have zero credibility.
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So if one passage is clear, all passages must be clear. That is still the assertion you are making. You are also claiming that all Scripture has a specific interpretation that can be asserted and used and that no one has the right to disagree with an interpretation, otherwise no one can have or use an interpretation. Or that if you disagree with an interpretation that negates your ability to use Scripture at all.
This has nothing to do with me or my credibility
You are claiming a blanket and correct interpretation of Scripture is not only possible but necessary for Scripture to function, and that is the oldest Scriptural criticism/assertion in the book.

Richard

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2 Pietro 3:15–16 : “Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. In them there are some things hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.”

Ephesians 4:11-14: “And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting”.

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  • You quoted my actual question immediately above your response:
    • “Does Scripture communicate propositions with sufficiently determinate meanings that we can sometimes say what its authors are asserting and distinguish a sound interpretation from an unsound one?”
  • I said sometimes. You have changed that successively into “all passages must be clear,” “all Scripture has a specific interpretation,” and “a blanket and correct interpretation of Scripture.”
  • I have asserted none of those things. In fact, I have explicitly denied them. So please answer the proposition I actually stated rather than the three propositions you have substituted for it:
    • Can we sometimes determine what a biblical author is asserting and distinguish a sound interpretation from an unsound one—yes or no?
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  • Where might I find “the oldest Scriptural criticism/assertion in the book” to which you refer?
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Talk to any YEC.

It is the all or nothing view of Scripture. If you can’t understand it then it is useless

Richard