A factor that is being overlooked by everyone who has commented is the lack of confrontation we see from all of the hundreds of persons who had knowledge of the crimes. Those who knew and said nothing are criminally negligent.
Those who claim these crimes to be born of some form of white male power are part of the problem, looking to assign blame to everyone but themselves.
Those who think the problem is with simple arrogance of salvation ignore the responsibility we have to be vigilant and attentive remaining unafraid to expose them.
These are crimes of genetic variants that predispose some to do this. Many apparently migrate into ministries for that very reason and in order to have the opportunities they are guilty of.
Or maybe not give them any space, but rather put them in prison where they belong.
Of course they did. It was rampant circa 100BC-200 AD.
Incorrect. The GWASās have mostly found variants (single nucleotide polymorphisms, or SNPs) that correlate strongly with homosexual behavior. This not something we should subject anyone to the ridiculous conversion therapy.
Ok but the causative factor seems to be relatively small, probably much less than 20%. Historically there have been problems with twin studies, particularly the earlier ones. But what of the >80% factor(s)?
The development of sexual orientation involves a complex interplay of diverse factors. Recently, studies have reported extensive findings in the fields of hormonal regulation (Abi Ghanem et al., 2017, Meerts et al., 2017), genetics (Ganna et al., 2019, Sanders et al., 2017, Sanders et al., 2015), Y-chromosome immunization (Bogaert et al., 2018), neural correlates (He et al., 2018, Jordan et al., 2018, Safron et al., 2017, Taziaux et al., 2016, Wei et al., 2018), and epigenetics (Ghahramani et al., 2014) with regard to male homosexuality along with bisexuality and female homosexuality (Camperio Ciani et al., 2018). Numerous studies have indicated that prenatal exposure to gonadal hormones or endocrine disruptors can lead to irreversible changes in the nervous system as well as sexual behavior and orientation in offspring (Hines, 2011, Schulz et al., 2009). The link between animal and clinical/human literature on the neuroendocrine control of sexual partner preference, behavior, and orientation has previously been reviewed (Baum, 2006, Gooren, 2006). The contributions of genetic factors to sexual orientation have also been investigated through family and twin studies (Alanko et al., 2010, Langstrom et al., 2010), along with segregation and genome-wide association analyses (Mustanski et al., 2005, Ramagopalan et al., 2010, Sanders et al., 2017, Sanders et al., 2015). In particular, a recent genome-wide association study on 493,001 participants identified five autosomal loci significantly associated with same-sex sexual behavior in humans, which also indicate the high polygenicity of sexual orientation (Ganna et al., 2019). Moreover, the role of the immune system in sexual orientation has also been explored (Bogaert and Skorska, 2011, Bogaert et al., 2018).
Sure it does. Conversion therapy would have a good success rate if people werenāt born with their orientation.
I wouldnāt say most people. And being gay is no longer considered a psychiatric disorder. In the past, many gay men (like Leonard Bernstein) have married women as a cover to avoid discrimination. But Imagine being a woman and finding this out about your husband!
I saw the movie Boy Erased about a gay teenās experience with conversion ātherapyā at a waking nightmare of a place called āLove in Action.ā (I intend to read the book also.) Itās a good film. The boy was sent there by very strict religious parents, but finally the mom saw how they were damaging her son and took him out. As it happened, some of the staff members at this place were so deep in the closet they could see Narnia, and two of them later came out as gay.
But youāre not going to make a big deal out of it.
Indeed. These were very intelligent people, 400 years after Socrates and 350 after Plato. Of course they knew the difference in orientation. Some were attracted to the same sex, others to the opposite. That is called āorientationā. It is a state of nature in existence since H.sapien evolved, and even other species as well. Homosexuality is not a disorder and certainly not a disease (to be treated, how absurd). Here is a link to a GWAS revealing no less than 5 loci associated with same-sex behavior. They even correlated the phenotype to other behaviors and traits. There are many loci spread across the genome, and as you did, I challenge anyone to change the gender to which they are attracted.
She feels the need, for some reason, to excuse it because they were not yet as enlightened as we are today? Orā¦
That it truly was different then, and is simply a matter of observable fact? Orā¦
That it would have been a sin, if they had only known that it was? And if soā¦
Would she assert the same about the rampant and sickening pedophilia circa the time of Christ? They even named it pederasty and the older person the erastes and the child his eromenos. Does anyone truly believe that they did not think it aberrant?
And a different and unrelated issue was the original questions raised about the child molestation we are now more aware of occurring in the ministries. There can be no excuse given for that. An overlooked component is the failure(s) of society to report these incidents when made aware of them. I assume we are all in agreement on that point, but perhaps not.
Itās the 1st time I hear about pederasty in the times of Christ, having said that of course I didnāt think previously no such thing occurred because it always had, just never heard anyone says it was rampant. But to answer your question, yes I believe some may have seen it as acceptable, maybe even normal. After all there were times when people didnāt think much of slavery(to just give you an example), it was perfectly normal practice that no-one thought to challenge. And when confronted about sexual harassment at work places, some say it was ādifferent back in the dayā. Not saying thatās right, but different things seem to be normal and acceptable at different times
Yes, 100%! Few times when victims came forward they wouldnāt be believed. There are countless stories of cover ups too.
I think all sexuality is based off of nature and nurture. I think the nature part is that we all essentially desire to be in a relationship and we all have biological urges rooted in passing on genetic information and we all enjoy pleasure. I think the nurture part is attraction. Attraction changes quite a bit. Pornography has been shown to greatly change someoneās attraction from physical appearances to the type of sex happening. Such as I can imagine anyone is born with a desire to be choked and tied up in ropes. That definitely seems like a nurtured fetish? I know people who were not attracted to certain races and I donāt think thatās biology. I donāt think there is a ā I think black women are ugly gene ā or a gene for ā I like red heads ā just like I donāt think there is a gene that makes some women like dad bods and some like Hercules. It seems in addition to pornography affecting attraction and kinks there is also the development of people being mentally attracted to someone first that they are not physically attracted to and then physical attraction develops. Such as a couple that was attracted to each other, as they got older one gained more weight and overtime that developed into a preference of liking chubbier people to the point that if they break up the one may purposely seek out encounters with a chubbier person. But back to race Iāve met men and women who at one point in their life preferred or was I attracted to one or many races and body types and a decade later that preference had changed.
Iāve met people who were bisexual and overtime became attracted solely to the same or opposite sex and bo longer was attracted to the other. Iāve met people who swear they were straight or gay and then it changed and they are no bisexual. There gender preferences changed. Such as a friend of mine who has always been gay. Even when we were in middle school he was gay. Actively very gay. Heās had tons of boyfriends and even was engaged for a few years to a guy. He moved and I was in the army and we just lost contact for a decade almost. I looked him up on IG and saw a guy that looked just like him but was like nah it canāt be. This dude has a beard and is a bit built with a kid and is married. My friend was skinny, very feminine and shaved their entire body and had long long hair down to his waist. I ended up messaging them saying you have the same name and look like a dude I know and it turned out it was him. He said one night he got really drunk and ended up sleeping with a girl at a bar. He woke up and she was in his bed and he was creeped out. Then a month later heās reached out to and told sheās pregnant. At some point she was almost to become homeless and so she moved in with him. They grew emotionally very close. Then the slept together. Then they kept sleeping together and the guy said just over time he stopped being attracted to guys and was attracted to women and they even hit a rocky spot because he cheated on her with another woman and then stayed together and got married and he started wanting to work out more, and now he looks and acts like the typical dude. Heās not sure why it changed. He thinks itās because of growing close to her and having sex that some kind of neurological change happened. It reminds me of guys who say they were always straight, never gay, never bi who ended up going to prison for decades and developing a relationship with a dude and then even remaining together once they both were out.
I think most of us never have that big of change. [Content about things the writer doesnāt find attractive removed by moderator.]
But outside of all of that I donāt think it matters what the Bible says, or what science may say, adults attracted to minors need to either keep it under control and get help or either they need to be locked up and not able to harm others. I donāt know if is true or not. I imagine itās true because I hear of tons of people in documentaries mentioning being adults married to like 14-16 year olds. Almost always adult men married to teenage women. Poe one of my favorite writers I believe was Eve married his underaged cousin. Iām told constantly that in ābiblical timesā it was ok and acceptable for a adult man to be married to any girl post her first period and that even Joseph may have been in his 40s and Mary a teenager. I donāt know. But what I do know that is unacceptable now. Part of the doctrines we see is submitting to the laws of land. Most land seem to restrict it. Maybe there are some backwards countries that permit it , or things like child marriages and so on. But I think itās few and itās dwindling. I think kids are being kids longer and ectā¦
I skimmed a bulk of the convo and so Iām not sure what it was about exactly. But I agree same sex attraction is not a disorder , disease or curse. As long as itās two adults not related to one another in typically have little judgement. Sure somethings to info seem weird. When I see a 22 year old girl married to a 50 year old man I think itās odd. But I donāt think itās evil.
So true. And it seems almost too easy today to excuse behavior from a different era. But it is simply true that cultures evolve enough to make them unrecognizable. Slavery was completely accepted. One cannot find any reference in the Bible that took our āenlightenedā position of today. And you may be right that man-child relationships were in the same categoryā¦who knows.
That is conventional wisdom, I think. However I am struck by the rapidly changing understanding of our genome, almost at the speed of light. In fact, we now have methods of unravelling the confounding variables of epidemiological studies that have burdened science for decades. E.g. we have almost written-into-conviction our belief that social drinking is healthy. We acknowledge, however, that confounding variables are at work, such that when data shows the 1-drink/day person healthier than the non-drinker, we admit that there are other variables of life style that could have explained it, but cannot be controlled in an observational study, much less an RCT. But now it can be, by using what is called Mendelian Randomization (MR). We can now isolate SNVs (single nucleotide variants) that associate with other risks (smoking, exercise, even preferences for healthy diets) and subject the studies to new statistical methods to eliminate the variables of correlation and get to causations. When this is done, we find that there is NO LEVEL of alcohol that is healthier than abstaining (I still drink socially, even though). So it may be much, much more nature than nurture. I can assure us all that we are on the verge of revolutionizing our understanding of these causations vs. correlations.
Like you, I cannot relate to those who think homosexual behavior is a choice. That is simple ignorance.
Well I drink one or two shots of vodka every now and then. Sometimes I have a shot a week for a month, sometimes I go a year without a shot. Almost everyone I know donāt drink more than once or twice a year. Many donāt even drink period.
With that said I agree sexuality is not a choice. No one is like well today Iām going to be attracted to so and so.
One they get a lot more data and itās observed in the real world Iāll accept whatever they toss out typically. But I imagine genetics obviously have something to do with it. Itās biological just as much as skin tone , hair type and ectā¦ obviously choirs can affect it but voices donāt make it. At least not with our species. Itās kind of like why do some people just naturally prefer metal while others prefer rock. It also seems like a combination of nature and nurture through experiences and memory making.
Thatās somewhat debated. The guest Esau McCaulley touches abut on that and also Jude3 project podcast. We also see a wide range of ancient cultures. One thing that comes to mind is that eventually society may be completely vegan. Eating animals will be grotesque possibly to future generations. Many may say well back in the day they did not understand the torture they were inflicting in animals and raised them up as slaighter meat. From their point of view that would be true. But itās still able to be defined should that happen, many of us could say actually some of us were ahead of that game back in the 90s and there was even fairly confirmed vegetarians thousands of years ago.
I imagine there has always been compassionate people who felt slavery was wrong. Even if it took a while for thst to be the majority.
First of all, I donāt think it comes from any inner sense of morality. I think it starts with the observation that many of the people around us have this idea of things which are right and things which are wrong and then we choose whether to reject the basic idea or to uphold it. And then many of us back up our choice with some rational as to why.
Second I donāt believe in either a genetic or a spiritual upgrade in the beginning of humanity. I think the difference was no more or less than a communication with God, or if you donāt believe in God then you can still equivalently think it was an inspiration or idea that took hold in our cultural development. I personally do believe in an historical Adam 6,000 to 10,000 years ago to whom God communicated some peculiar ideas of personhood, goodness, justice, and love. And I expect these spread over the globe in a 100 to 1000 years.
Nor do I really believe in any āimage of Godā thing added to the species. I do think it means that God adopted us as His children and those ideas He communicated to us are the inheritance from Him upon which being His children is based. What I think it substantially means is that we were created with an infinite potentiality to reflect Godās infinite actuality, thus making for a parent-child relationship in which there is no end to what God can give to us and no end to what we can receive from Him. This is the substance of eternal life.
Itās definitely not common and from everything Iāve read itās usually someone with 3-4 years of their age and requires parental and judicial consent. So itās like a 16 year old marrying someone 18-21 for the most part.
We donāt have any 12 year olds goring married to 50 year old men though.
According to a Frontline report from 2017, over 200,000 minors in the US are known to have married between 2000 and 2015 (info was not gotten from some states that allowed underage marriage including California) though the numbers per year were dropping. 87% were female, 13% male; 86% of the marriages were of a minor to an adult (3% of the adults were over 29, 31 of the known marriages involved an adult over 60, one was of a 74 year old man to a 14 year old girl in Alabama [the state has since raised the minimum age]). 4% of the minors were 15 and <1% were under 15. Children aged 12 were known to have married in three states (Alaska, Louisiana, South Carolina). 14 states are known to have had 13 year olds married.
Well I wish they gave some more info to their data.
Ultimately, it says what I said.
The overwhelming majority was 16-17 year olds marrying 18-23. Which is stupid but not what Iām worried about. I donāt care if a 17 year married a 19 year old.
Looks like a handful around 5% weāre definitely concerning though. Those are ones where someone 16-17 married someone who was 29+. Mentions a few cases of people 12-15 that got married to someone 29+.
Though those 100 or so cases are disgusting and I think the clerks, parents and adults involved should be shot I donāt think that makes Americas country where child marriages are common. Itās not even that common for the 17 year old to marry a 20 year old. I donāt think to many views that a predatory relationship.
No. One here though is defending pedophiles. So yes out of millions of married a handful of really creepy ones was signed off on from 1995 onward. Wish it gave the actual info for some of them , or at least the date. Iām curious when a 12 year old was permitted to marry a adult. I tried googling it and just see this report mentioned but nothing ever lists the date or who it was and ectā¦
But I still donāt see it as enough to really say america has a child marriage problem of minors marrying someone much older than them. The article states the overwhelming majority are 16-17 marrying 18-23, the next largest amount is creepy though at 16-17 marrying 24-28. But to be honest even if it was a 18 year old marrying a 29 year old and is legal I would still think the guy was crappy and weird. I would not hang out with them.
In India you have 1/4 of girls married off before their 18th birthday.
In Afghanistan we see a increase in child marriages of kids 15 and under being married off to men to settle debts. In africa almost 40% of girls under the age of 18 are married off. Thatās mostly what Im referring to. Not a few out of a million where 17 year olds marry 19 years olds but where itās hundreds of thousands of 14-16 year olds getting married period, let alone to much older men and itās even more disgusting that itās for paying off debts.