Thank you for all the replies on this ) I am reading them through. As I work my way around this forum. Fascinating … just so you know your replies and input is really appreciated )
Dino
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Just to add: even some very conservative scholars are open to a hyperbolic reading of the numbers, such as Dave Fouts (a YEC advocate) - see here. Not saying it’s the right take, but it shows sensitivity by those who you might not think would be open to less-than-literalistic readings.
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I’m sure that Vedic epic has historical roots. Besides, I still dont see many reasons to dismiss The Exodus as pious fiction; The Plagues happen to this day in Egypt!
Riiiight. I’d missed that. The BBC never reports on it. So they’re entirely natural then. Blood river, darkness, death of firstborn. What, ten year events? And I’m sure that Vedic epic has historical roots too. The Exodus does not.
Surely, you are right! Nothing comes close.
If ((the claim of divine incarnation) and (none of the pious myths have any relevance)), then …
How do you see it?
What do we have?
What is?
And what does that mean to us?
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Stroll on Kendel!
I’m just this guy, you know? Like Zaphod Beeblebrox.
How do I see it?
For a start: The Incarnation (our Earth local one of infinite from eternity), God’s excession, if real, is proof of Him.
What do we have?
The Greatest Story Ever Told. Shorn of mandatory, faith robbing, primitive myth, the greatest remains.
What is?
Infinite, eternal nature and transcendence for all that suffers.
And what does that mean to us?
Something to hope for, something to aspire to be a decent human being for, with the bonus proposition that life is better with dogs and God. I know of many decent people who have no God, I’m not suggesting that Christians are more decent; they aren’t. But we have the greatest potential treasure. And it is right to tell the suffering that all will be well. If we’re wrong, it does no harm.
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It is understandable tit for tat when faced with unreasonable creationist demands for evidence which simply would not be expected. But it doesn’t change the fact that the such demands for evidence are unreasonable and the lack of it does not prove their case in any way at all. It is a simple fact of reality that the number of ancestors and events they participated in which left us no evidence far far far exceeds the number which did leave us evidence.
Though the arguments for mistranslations of the numbers given in Numbers chapter one are interesting. found here
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Archaeologically, there is evidence for a significant number (not millions but in keeping with the “clans” reading of the numbers) of people showing up in the highlands of Israel around the mid-late 1200’s BC. These people seem to have been relatively averse to idols and to pork compared with the previous local Canaanites. Geographic details in the exodus account also specifically match places that were occupied only briefly around Rameses’ time. There’s probably about as much archaeological evidence as one could reasonably expect from one of many somewhat nomadic groups of the time.
The claim that Israelite theology simply gradually grew out of Canaanite religion is not supported by any particular evidence. Contrary to various pseudoscientific claims, there’s no particular reason to expect ideas such as theology to develop gradually, nor to follow a fixed pattern. (Marxist history is a similar example of trying to impose a preconceived pattern on history and claim it’s scientific.)
Unlike the historical documents that trace European royal families back to the gods or ancient nobility, the claim that “we’re descended from a bunch of whiny escaped slaves who didn’t follow directions” isn’t exactly the typical sort of thing that one would make up. Certainly, there was significant assimilation of Canaanite populations and practices, both in Egypt and after the Exodus.
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Considering that the BBC aired a program suggesting that King David never existed, I wouldn’t expect much from them anymore.
As funny as it sounds, it seems so. Algal blooms would certainly bloody the water, spread pestilence, and drive out the frogs if they got bad enough, and the skies of Egypt certainly darken in sandstorms and hailstorms, flashing with lightning as like fire.
If it is impossible for these things to have happened simultaneously (or as we might expect) then they are mere examples of the many pieces of internal evidence suggesting there were once Semitic slaves with some relationship with YHWH that escaped from Egypt.
You might like this; Friedman’s stuff is great
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Where does it seem so? So the G’tak, in Egyptian I falsely recall, are a tad hyperbolic. Like the 2.4 million Israelites wandering the desert for 40 years from 1445 BCE. I’m not aware of non-marine red tides. So, as the BBC can’t be trusted to be interested, have you got any other disinterested links on these natural plagues that prove the supernatural?
Why do you need this nonsense to believe in God in Christ Jesus?
Dr. Richard Elliott Friedman and Dr. David Falk make a compelling case for such an event, and people like Dr. William Dever aren’t opposed to the event.
Is this a reference to something?
Am I being dishonest about something?
Well I never said that happened, and certainly never before the Late Ramesside Period!
Oh my bad. It looks like that’s the case, unless there was an estuary involved. But the other stuff is still very feasible.
I wouldn’t say they prove the supernatural, because that is not my intention. Anything supernatural alleged to exist has nothing to do with the conversation we are currently having. I suggest seeing what Dr. David Falk and Richard Elliott Friedman have to say about it.
I never said that I needed to; if I lost my faith right now, I would still believe that a historical Exodus happened. All I’m saying is that the narrative likely has a historical basis and if Christianity is true it would be more spiritually meaningful to everyone of Abrahamic faiths if Christ was talking about an event so defining to the Jews He called His people that had a basis in reality.
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So why would you believe such errant nonsense along with these two non scientific doctors and “a biblical literalist disguised as a liberal”?
Oh wait, this is about those Plagues and miracles. Well, Falk is a Christian who affirms the supernatural and is currently writing a book about The Plagues in their Egyptian context, and Friedman is most likely nonreligious; some miracles he touches on are Moses’ Theophany, the origin of the Plague story, and the Crossing of the Sea of Reeds, and he talks about the ancient connection between YHWH and the land of Midian (where Moses stayed), how the Levites (the soon-to-be Israelites that actually were in Egypt) added the bit about The Plagues, and how there used to be shallow parts of the Nile Delta that have long since dried, fully capable of “parting” in a wind set down.
I wouldn’t call someone who doesn’t believe in Joshua’s Conquest a “biblical literalist.” But then again, he doesn’t regard the OT as
so I guess he’ll be turning in his kilt and bagpipes.
Just because the authors of The Old Testament recorded history in ways we don’t anymore does not mean they were anti-historical. Professor Gary A. Rendsburg once reminded two archaeologists at a San Diego conference that The Bible accurately remembers where the Philistines came from, a region known as Caphtor that may be the very same Cyprus of the dreaded Sea Peoples to whom the Philistines belonged; why wouldn’t the Israelites writing the books know where they came from?
I hope this doesn’t come across as mean or anything, but I can’t shake the feeling that you want Christianity to be true, but just the “warm and fuzzy” Jesus parts and Lord willing nothing else, cause then you couldn’t bring yourself to love Him. I kind of get that, but you could always just have immense respect for the person of Jesus and for the Judeo-Christian tradition He’s a part of, cause there’s more to admire about The Bible than to revile, without becoming religious.
And what’s any of this unscientific nonsense got to do with Jesus?
I was primarily concerned with your question regarding why I’m pretty sure there’s at the very least some truth to The Exodus.
Besides, I think I already said that it’s possible to be a Christian and not believe that The Exodus happened.
Love your question, DinoDino…I was Zooming a weekend archaeology lecture series a few months back. Someone in the online audience raised a similar question of the particular archaeologist who had been speaking. He said “not finding things is what archaeology is”. He also noted that there are other notable historic events for which there is written historical documentation but nooooooo, absolutely noooooo archaeological evidence. When it comes to the Exodus, it has been said by various people – of varying religious backgrounds — that no Pharoah was going to boast about being bested by someone else’s god. All true. The evidence that does exist is anecdotal — such as the presence of Egyptian loanwords in Hebrew, the knowledge that Exodus shows of Egyptian customs — such as the fact that it WAS custom for people-groups within that region to want to go off somewhere and worship their god separately (just as Moses was asking to be allowed to do). I read a book published long ago by a British colonel who had worked, evidently during colonial times, in the Sinai. He was skeptical, thought Moses was a con man. To prove that Moses was a con man, this colonel showed some areas of the biblical text that displayed that Moses had some awareness of the geography of the Sinai. So the text shows awareness of geological features of the Sinai, thus Moses was a con man. Every thing is a matter of interpretation and personal perspective, I suppose. Durant said the route of the Exodus was a familiar route for the people of that era. Durant, of course, wrote decades ago, so I am not sure if his views are accepted now or not… OK…my two cents worth…
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Or to Japheth via Odin and Beowulf (House of Wessex). Or Paul’s Niece (Carolingians).
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If anybody has evidence for a sizable exodus I’d sure like to see it. I note that the Hebrews thought to pack gold-smithing equipment and schlepped it around in the wilderness. It doesn’t say how anybody learned gold-smithing, though.
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That sounds very interesting! Do you remember the name?
I have it somewhere…will look it up. I think, off the top of my head, Col Jarvis…but will get back to you…
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