Mind blown
Genesis 1-11 is not history.
And is only one example. And you ignored my point that not all Hebrews went into exile. Do those who remained in their homeland also forget their geography? They forgot the location of Jacob’s well, the burial place of Joseph, the location of Mitsrayim, etc. etc.
Really? They studied the pre-Exodus geography and worked out what would be the best fit? Your theory, like YEC, starts to require more and more stretches to make it fit.
1 Like
There are different views on this. I am inclined to believe that an inspired text means what it says.
Why is that not possible. We have to assess this possibility in the light of so many geographical contradictions. Further, the Joseph’s land and Jacobs well are really traditions. These are not geography like rivers and mountains. Show me please a NT reference to 4 rivers and the like in west Asia.
What’s atomic biology? I’ve heard of quantum biology, but not that.
Just asking because it sounds like good sci fi material I could make use of.
1 Like
Oh, it’s science fiction all right but not good sci fi. See this thread
and look for the guy called “GodsBiology”
It’s an intelligent design type of anti-science with a twist: God uses just the right number of atoms and molecules to build living organisms. When I pointed out that this wasn’t the case the conversation turned darker, and he suggested that God was punishing people who have diseases. He has written a book and wanted people on BioLogos to promote it. Such chutzpah! This is his website
2 Likes
So the earth is only 6,000 years old?
Assuming you mean the 4 rivers that flowed from Eden, all of them didn’t exist during NT times. However, when you remember that the Persian Gulf was not always there, there are several rivers that are currently under water that would place Eden in the normally accepted location. And the flooding of the Gulf provides the source for the flood story.
For the simple reason there were Hebrews living next to Jacob’s well for the duration of the exile. I can understand the exact location of Jacob’s well might be lost to those in exile but not for those still living there. You want to invoke a mass cultural amnesia to make your theory fit. Sorry but Occam’s Razor says your are wrong.
2 Likes
- Re: It will take me some time to locate most of the places named in your three lists.
- Re: the journeys of (a) Moses to Midian and back, (b) Moses and the Israelites to Mt. Sinai/Horeb; (c) Jethro and Moses’ wife and sons to join Moses and the Israelites near Mt. Sinai/Horeb; (d) Saul and his soldiers to attack the Amalekites; and (e) Elijah to Mt. Sinai/Horeb.
- Of primary interest to me is the last, Elijah’s journey to Mt. Sinai/Horeb, because the Bible tells us that he made his journey in 40 days and nights and we know that Ahab reigned about 874–853 BC in Israel.
- I “guesstimated” that he might have walked 25 miles/day X 40 days - 1,000. You suggest that he could have traveled 80 km/day [i.e. close to 50 miles/day. I’ve never been a hiker, but I have been looking through the information about The 14 Most Famous Hikers of All Time (Male and Female) – Greenbelly Meals. The latter were experienced long-distance hikers and traveled with packs. Elijah was also a walker, but he was not carrying food or water. Bottom line: I am reluctant to believe that Elijah could travel nearly 2,000 miles in 40 days with no food or water, except what an angel may have provided. IMO 1,000 miles boggles my mind, but seems more do-able.
- Of primary interest to me is the last, Elijah’s journey to Mt. Sinai/Horeb, because the Bible tells us that he made his journey in 40 days and nights and we know that Ahab reigned about 874–853 BC in Israel.
- You certainly have a hard row to plow ahead of you, Bharat. And this forum is just the beginning. Conservative Christians, Orthodox Jews, and Muslims–all of whom have even stronger, higher views of their Scriptures than I have–may be as encouraging as a “swarm of hornets”.
Good luck and be safe.
–Terry
3 Likes
The Bible says he walked “day and night.” Prophets can do this without food or sleep. So 80 km/day would not be impossible.
Yes. But, perhaps, that is why I was born… I believe in doing my best.
2 Likes
[quote=“Bill_II, post:450, topic:49111”]
So the earth is only 6,000 years old?
The Bible does not say 6000 years. That is Bishop Ushher’s genealogical chronology. Nothing to do with the creation of earth.
//Assuming you mean the 4 rivers that flowed from Eden, all of them didn’t exist during NT times. However, when you remember that the Persian Gulf was not always there, there are several rivers that are currently under water that would place Eden in the normally accepted location.//
I have made a comparative study of the possibility of location of Eden at Lake Van, Qurnah and India. I would be very happy to share with you but cannot do so in public because it is submitted for publication. Pl send your email to me at bharatjj@gmail.com. I find that the geographical info in the Bible matches (-)14 and 7 percent at Lake Van and Qurnah as compared to 89 percent at Pushkar in India.
//And the flooding of the Gulf provides the source for the flood story.//
Two critical differences are that the Jewish tradition says the Flood took place in October while floods in Iraq take place in April. Secondly, Iraq floods have a clear passage to the Persian Gulf and do not stay for 150 days as told in the Bible.
//For the simple reason there were Hebrews living next to Jacob’s well for the duration of the exile. I can understand the exact location of Jacob’s well might be lost to those in exile but not for those still living there. You want to invoke a mass cultural amnesia to make your theory fit. Sorry but Occam’s Razor says your are wrong.//
We need to distinguish between living traditions and geographical info. For example, “Eden” is claimed to be located at at least 7 locations. So, it is possible that there is a Jacob’s well in Indus Valley as well as Israel. Geographical info, on the other hand, is like rivers and mountains and deserts that do not change much in a few millennia and leave a footprint if they do. We truly do not know where the original Jacob’s well was located. The antiquity of the “Jacob’s well” at Shechem is uncertain. The earliest reference to this well by the name “Jacob’s well” is available only from 333 CE (Alliata, Eugenio, Mount Ephraim and Benjamin, Here is Jacob’s well, Studium Biblicum Franciscanum, Jerusalem, 2000, http://198.62.75.1/www1/ofm/mad/sources/sources041.html, Retrieved November 23, 2010).
Entirely agree. But what the words mean is subject to our interpretation. There would be no case for exegesis if everything was crystal clear.
Thx
Bill, Bill, Bill. You’re being rational. Now stop it.
1 Like
Pope Benedict: The issue is the primacy of God. The issue is acknowledging that he is a reality, that he is the reality without which nothing else can be good. History cannot be detached from God and then run smoothly on purely material lines.
https://studentsoul.intervarsity.org/pope-book
Klax. Let us carry history and faith together.
We do not know how many remained. We do not know whether those that remained were aware of the history. I think the possibility cannot be ruled out. The argument in favor of their forgetting their original places is that geography does not match with the places that are identified as on date.
Historicity of the Bible cannot be established without providing archaeological evidences at the relevant time at the relevant places. Of course, faith can stand on its own. But faith will only be deepened if there is supporting archaeological evidence.
It does when you take Genesis literally, as you said you do.
Did you include the rivers currently under the Persian Gulf? A comparative study when it doesn’t include the actual location that is in question is meaningless. I believe this is a Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy.
Don’t see how Jewish tradition is a problem given we can’t date the Persian Gulf flood to the month. It may well have happened in October.
So mountains contain large signs identifying them so there is no way people could be confused?
In an earthquake prone region rivers also change their course, often over night. I believe if you go back far enough in time there is geological proof that the Euphrates river emptied into the Mediterranean.
And so far I have seen no indication that you have actually studied the geology of the region. You base your theory on word meaning with no way to prove the meaning changed except that it matches your theory.
Again with the cultural amnesia. And the people that remained had some access to the Torah, unless you want to argue it was all written after the exile. In which case that makes it a forgery and should be thrown out.
Which Biblical Archaeology does. May not be perfect but there are mounds of evidence that there was no change in the location of Canaan to thousands of miles away.
So you agree with yourself. Good to know.
2 Likes
Show me please.
There is no water course footprint below the gulf. Pure speculation. No biblical archaeologist takes this seriously to my knowledge.
Please share the evidence on four rivers, 150 day flood, two nahar of Abraham, parting of the sea and volcano to begin with. Glad we are coming back to the subject of this thread.
What rivers are they? With sources under the Persian Gulf?
Or the nearest myriad years.
I can’t find it. That must have been a 9. When was that?
And the Minoan cult of the Bull in Crete? [cf. and the legend of the Minotaur)
1 Like
Add up the ages in the genealogies. It is all Bishop Ussher did.
Sorry but the geology says otherwise. And there is also archaeological evidence to support this.
Watch this video. It contains academic sources. And no, he is not arguing for a global flood.
You ever read anything by gbob here? He provided the geological data that supported it.
2 Likes