The consistent opposition to macro evolution and transmutation: How to respond?

I was watching Cosmos with Carl Sagan tonight, with my father.

It made me want to research the new apologist superstar from Oxford, John Lennox. He has worked with Ravi Zacharias.

Both are deeply opposed to macro evolution and transmutation, as are all the leading antievolutionist organizations.

These apologists have immense pull in the Protestant churches of Dallas who hold to the historic faith.

But Bill Nye came here to a packed house at the university.

How can we approach the explosive topic of transmutation?

For me what’s actually turned out to be the best approach is to help them see the Bible in a better light. They believe in creationism not because of scientific evidence, but faith that the word is meant to be taken literally in genesis concerning human origins and so on.

I show them the literary techniques used by the authors to create a story. Such as what Abel’s name is, what Cain’s name is, how we know that earth is not flat and wrapped in a dome, and bring up issues of contention such as if Adam was immortal, then why was there a tree of life that sustained eternal life. I bring up the differences between the two creation accounts side by side. I talk about why is it that the actions Eve accuses the serpent of in Hebrew is the same sound serpents make, hiss, in how it sounded. I bring up issues such as in Joshua where it says the sun revolves around earth and how we know that’s not true.

Then I begin to attack their misguided belief about the Bible itself. Such as where in scripture do we find evidence that a council of men had a right to decide what was in scripture. There is no supporting verse for that. I bring up bow throughout the world at various times there was multitude of books considered true and throughout the shes they’ve changed. I ask them why is it in Jude that it’s mentioned Moses’s corpse was argued over by Satan and Michael , and why does Jude mention the prophecies of Enoch when neither of those stories are in the Torah. The books that have historically contained those stories were rejected from canonization. So was Jude wrong, was the council wrong, is there different books here that was not the same then and so on. I bring up the book of Jasher and missing letters of paul by references to them found in scripture and ask why is it that our bibles don’t contain every book that it mentions itself.

After a few bible studies focused on this, I find many begin to doubt the false esteem they held scripture in. Not that the word is a lie or false, but that they almost set the word up as a god itself and that they needed to readjust their understanding of it. In my experience when they begin to change their view on how perfect the Bible is, they begin to be more open to ideas that perhaps scripture is not meant to be taken literal in genesis based on the Bible itself. After that, they become more open to a scientific explanation of creation because it’s no longer science vs Bible, but science vs one faulty interpretation of the Bible. It helps undermine that false war they created by demanding literal interpretation.

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If you get them to see that it is their reliance on their own unstudied interpretation of the Bible that makes them so certain, you’ve done them a service. Just as courage requires balancing caution with risk, so too I think faith requires that we balance humility with resoluteness.

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John Lennox, 76, has been an old superstar since 2007

I find the social evolution of folk religion in America fascinating, it’s another planet. How a simple rational realization, that is nearly twice as old as Lennox, can still be explosive is symptomatic of population expansion outstripping learning at the same time.

The lemming effect?

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John 1:1-3 (NIV2011)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the Beginning.
3 Through Him all things were made; without Him was made that has been made.

Only good Bible interpretation can defeat bad Bible interpretation.

Only Jesus Christ is the Word, not the Bible, not bad theology and philosophy.

Lift Jesus up.

See my book, Darwin’s MYTH.

What do you mean by transmutation?

What I mean by transmutation is the conversion of one population/species into another

I’ve never heard of it.

So speciation?

SkovandOfMitaze I kindly suggest that you may want to reevaluate what you say to people about your statement above.

Concerning human origins, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit all agree God made mankind at the beginning of creation and the first male and female were Adam and Eve. Below is their testimony.

First let’s see what God says about what is needed to establish a matter to be true.

God said, Deut 19:15 A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.

Jesus said, Matt 18:16 But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.”

Paul said, 2 Cor 13:1Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses."

Concerning the creation of mankind we should take the word of these three witnesses, God, Jesus and the Spirit through Paul, over the words of man.

Concerning the creation of mankind, God said the following.

Gen 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.” 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

Gen 2:7 the Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. 18 The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.” 24 But for Adam no suitable helper was found. 21 So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs and closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. 23 The man said, “This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called 'woman,'for she was taken out of man.” 24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.

Concerning the creation of mankind, Jesus said the following.

Matt 19:4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator (Gen 1:27) ‘made them male and female,’ 5 and said, (Gen 224)‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.”

Concerning the creation of mankind, Paul by the Spirit said the following.

1 Corinthians 11:8 “For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. 9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.” Here he is talking about the first man and woman and Paul says woman was created for man and came from man; a real Adam and a real Eve created by God.

And in 1 Timothy 2:12 “But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.” Again Paul points to the creation of mankind and when he does it is Adam and Eve, who, “at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,”.

The knowledge and Words of God, Jesus and the Spirit should always be taken over mans knowledge and words. The testimonies of these three witnesses, declare that man was created at the beginning of creation. Using mans limited understanding of God’s creation to oppose what God, Jesus and the Spirit through Paul declare as Truth, demeans and takes away from the very Word of God. It is God’s Word that judges the thoughts and intents of man’s heart, not mans thoughts, wisdom, knowledge and words that judge God.

1 Cor 1:19 “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.” 20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

I would agree that in order to reject evolution you would have to reject knowledge, reason, and logic in order to do so. The only way for creationism to work is to cling to a specific interpretation of the Bible and refuse to accept evidence that may contradict it.

I guess the first point for me to start at is to state I believe in Adam and Eve, and I believe in all the people mentioned essentially. But I still believe that their stories are told though the literary styles of mythology and ahistorical. Not saying you don’t know what the world is but it’s often misunderstood for a typo. An ahistorical is similar to a historical fiction and they can range from just a touch of fantasy to lots of it.

So the story of genesis 1-3 essentially is this.

God was hovering above a watery world that was without form. It somehow managed to not freeze until the son was created. Then over a period of six days, God creates a world that is protected from space water by a giant dome. The co-rulers of this world are a man made from dust that was possible turned to mud by the mists and his wife who was created from a rib taken from him while he slept. They were immortal, because no death yet existed , and they are fruits from trees as ultimately were deceived by a talking serpent because they ate from a forbidden tree that gave people the wisdom of good and bad, and somehow made them aware of their nakedness. They had two sons , Cain and his brother Abel who was murdered by his brother. Cain was then drove from the land of eden just like his parents were drove from the garden in Eden. Cain took one of his sisters as a wife and was marked by god to protect him from his bloodthirsty vengeful brothers and sisters and he traveled East and founded a empire.

Do you agree with that or is there anything you disagree with? That can help me shape my argument.

My initial point is, God, Jesus and the apostle Paul, lead by the Spirit, all make it clear that Adam and Eve were actually the first man and woman. Therefore all humanity came from them.

Do you agree or disagree with God, Jesus and the Spirit?

I disagree with Cody_G, I think.

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I understand. But nonetheless, for a real discussion to take place we have to be adults and talk about it. Not use pointless questions like do I believe what Jesus said.

If you want to have a real conversation where we begin to deconstruct the story found in genesis 1-4 then you have to willing to go through the story with me and we work together to interpret the story and all that is within it from strictly a biblical based argument. Where we see what it says, and what it does not say. Once we know what it actually says, and what it does not say, we can then see if science and theology can work together.

The question of do you believe what Jesus said is far from pointless. I did not say it as some flippant, off the cuff religious phrase. In the original post I quoted what Jesus and Paul said, and I really wanted to know if you believed specifically in those quotes what Jesus and Paul said.

Since Jesus is the Word and was there in the beginning, and He is the one that was prophesied in Genesis that would crush the serpents head and all through the Law and the prophets proclaimed as our salvation, I would rather start with the thoughts of Jesus. And also Paul as he was called by Jesus personally to make His will known.
Matthew 19, 1 Corinthians, 1 Timothy 2

At the moment I must go to bed. I’ll check in later.
Thank you for your interaction.

I do believe what scripture says. However, when Jesus is quoting those verses I think we must go back and see what do they mean.

Revelation speaks of dragons and sea monsters with ten horns. Yet I am sure neither one of us believe in that.

So when you ask someone, do you believe what Jesus said right there with isolated verses it is an off the cuff type question. The real questions is not whether I believe in what Jesus said, but do I believe in your literal interpretation of what Jesus said. No I don’t believe in your interpretation of what Jesus said.

Jesus is hyerlinking back to genesis and so we should start there. It’s extremely important to see what the Bible says, vs what it does not say, and try to conclude what literary style it was wrote in.

Jesus spoke in parables all of the time. I don’t see how you can just assume that anything Jesus is quoted as saying is literal history. I could say, “Remember how the turtle beat the hare in the race,” but I would not be describing a literal history.

I would also highly recommend an article here at BioLogos that deals with this very subject:

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