That is correct 
Happy New Year.
This one is a little less obvious.
Is the crucifixion for God’s benefit or ours?
Put it another way, Does the Crucifixion create God’s grace or reflect it?
This may sound outrageous but, what if the crucifixion was so that we could forgive ourselves rather than God can forgive us?
Scripture says that “Our ways are not God’s ways” (paraphrased). And it has always been assumed that this is some sort of lacking on the human part. But, what if the concept of perfection was human and not from God? That God expects us to be not perfect! And does not actually require us to try… only do our best. And the crucifixion is actually His way of showing this.
IOW the crucifixion is not a necessity for God at all. But it was necessary to show us that he will forgive our imperfections (Anyway!)
WHOOPS
Richard
1 John 1:7 - But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
Eph 1:7 - In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,
Col 1:20 - and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross
I wouldn’t know where to base this theological idea within Scripture. I would agree that the crucificxion was not for God but for us, but I do believe in the atoning blood of Jesus, the pascal lamb. I know some here don’t.
I don’t think forgiving ourselves is as important as God forgiving us.
1 Like
I don’t see any choice here or anyone choosing.
The fact is that far more of our belief system is a choice than we like to acknowledge. Lots of people here don’t believe the Exodus occurred–because the time they believe it happened shows no evidence of it. But moving it back a couple of centuries, the evidence is there, but people won’t change their view. That is why I went through all those guys in science who challenged the status quo.
How is it a choice?
This is for Christopher Michaels and anyone else interested in the data FOR the historicity of the Bible. I have taken data from various sources and put it in order of the Biblical events that took place in Avaris, Egypt–Tell el Dab’a.
Avaris was originally a small Semitic settlement in Goshen. The first houses, replaced by a Palace were of Syrian design–like those found in Haran, Syria where the Patriarchs obtained their wives.
" Significantly, this edifice was constructed right on top of the ruins of a previous structure in Stratum H, which it seems to replace: a stately residence of a characteristic, non-native, Syrian design. " Rabbi Michael S. Bar-Ron, THE SEAL OF JOSEPH IN HIS PALACE AT TELL ED-DABA, December 29, 2017, 11 Teveth 5778 Beth Midrash Ohel, Moshe Beit Shemesh, Israel, p. 2
The original town was under 100 people:
" This community of Semites numbered a hundred or so, at most, in its initial phase, with perhaps twenty houses. The Book of Genesis tells us that seventy souls arrived with Jacob to settle in Goshen, so this seems to fit the archaeological picture. As time passed, during the long reign of Amenemhat III, the palace of Joseph in Area F was built over the demolished remains of his father’s house, and his elder brothers were buried in the family cemetery to the rear of he vizier’s palace. On Tell A, the village rapidly expanded as the Hebrews multiplied ." David Rohl, Exodus, Myth or History, (St. Louis Park, MN: ThinkingMan’s Media 2013, p…123
A palace replaced the simple huts.
" Every detail of this building, the very first in Area F, precisely fits what we would expect of the house of Jacob, whose family originated in Ḥarran, modern Syria. Genesis records that they were given the open area of Goshen to settle, after arriving in Egypt from Canaan (Gen. 46,34-47,6). " Rabbi Michael S. Bar-Ron, THE SEAL OF JOSEPH IN HIS PALACE AT TELL ED-DABA, December 29, 2017, 11 Teveth 5778 Beth Midrash Ohel, Moshe Beit Shemesh, Israel, p. 2
There are two rows of 12 pillars in the palace and 12 tomb’s outback, one of which was given a high honor for a Semite–he was given his own small pyramid.
“The palace garden has a cemetery with Semitic burials. While Egyptian burials tend to be straight-bodied, buried on their backs, Semites buried their dead on their sides, in semi-fetal position. All the pottery and weapons found in the tombs are of Canaanite origin. Of all the burials, there were 12 prominent tombs; 12 main graves for men of seniority. This is precisely what one might expect to find in the central bastion of Jacob’s Israelites.”
“Among the main graves, all vaulted tombs, is a single grand pyramid tomb with the broken remains of a 3-meter-high, sitting statue of a Semitic lord in a long, rich, multi-colored coat , believed by Rohl and others to depict the famous vizier Ankhu. The Torah records that Joseph wore just such a coat, the envy of his brothers (Gen. 37,3-4).” Rabbi Michael S. Bar-Ron, THE SEAL OF JOSEPH IN HIS PALACE AT TELL ED-DABA, December 29, 2017, 11 Teveth 5778 Beth Midrash Ohel, Moshe Beit Shemesh, Israel, p. 3
The palace was obviously of an important man.
" Standing out among the uncovered ruins of Middle-Bronze Age Avaris, Tell el-Daba Area F, are the remains of a palace of a high-ranking official, excavated by Manfred Bietak with the Austrian Institute for Egyptology.
"Although the palace has an Egyptian style, it is understood by all that its chief occupant was a high-ranking Semitic official, on account of the graves in the cemetery of its palace garden. The honor given this Asiatic (another term for Semite) by the Egyptian crown was so great, he was given a pyramid tomb with a massive statue to commemorate his memory. It has been determined that the statue bore a striped, multi-colored coat, yellow-painted skin and flame-red hair, and held in its hand a throw-stick – all quintessential marks of Semite ethnicity.
“That a Semitic official would be honored with a pyramid tomb is an anomaly with no equivalent in ancient Egyptian history. Most significant to our premise, it was found in Stratum G/4, dated to the 12th Dynasty, believed by some to be the ‘early Israelite period’ at Avaris.” Rabbi Michael S. Bar-Ron, THE SEAL OF JOSEPH IN HIS PALACE AT TELL ED-DA BA, December 29, 2017, 11 Teveth 5778 Beth Midrash Ohel, Moshe Beit Shemesh, Israel, p. 2
In the pyramid tomb was a large statue of a Semite in a multicolored clothing:
“Larger than life size statuary of non-royal Egyptians in the Middle Kingdom is very unusual, but rare examples do exist throughout the 12th Dynasty, both from tombs and from temples. They seem to be limited, however, to families of highest ranks. In the late Middle Kingdom nonroyal statuary can become quite small in size (VANDIER 1958, 255, 271, 284), as represented by the statuette from tomb l/19-Nr. 1 of stratum d/1 (BIETAK 1991 b, Abb. 12). On the other hand, most examples of non royal larger than life statuary date to this period as well .” p. 136 (PDF) Robert Schiestl, The Statue of an Asiatic Man from Tell el-Dabca, Egypt, in: Egypt and Levant 16, 2006, 173-185 | Robert Schiestl - Academia.edu
Schiestl continues:
" Another feature emphasized in Egyptian depictions of Asiatic people is their colorful attire. On our statue traces of the design of the garment are best visible on the back of the right shoulder: A color is detectable, with three horizontal stripes in black, red and black, with white spaces in between. the garment’s collar is relatively wide, in order to accommodate the Egyptian wsh-collar worn around the neck, which is visible in the front. Beneath the collar, the cloth consists of vertical red stripes ."p. 139
https://www.academia.edu/1470847/Robert_Schiestl_The_Statue_of_an_Asiatic_Man_from_Tell_el-Dabca_Egypt_in_Egypt_and_Levant_16_2006_173-185
Joseph couldn’t wear a ring that said he was the son of a God, so he chose a ring to give to his official that said “Jacob Chosen” Such rings are found in Avaris, this Semitic town.
Then they found rings that said jqbhr, interpreted as Hebrew Jacob Bahar with the middle ‘b’ serving both words, meaning “Jacob chosen”. What is quite fascinating is that one of the Hyksos pharoahs was Yaqub-Har (see the Wiki list of Pharoah’s). Yaqub-Har was just at this time in Egyptian history, but they can’t quite place him. I wonder if archaeologists have mixed up this name with an actual pharaoh. Jacob was the father of Joseph. Of these rings, Simcha Jacobovici says :
But if such a ring was placed on Joseph’s finger it would have created an immediate theological problem for Joseph. After all, he was a monotheist. Monotheism is, by definition, exclusive. It does not allow for the celebration of other gods. Put simply, wearing the ring attesting to the divinity of Pharaoh would have been a huge problem for Joseph. It would be tantamount to idolatry.
So what do you do if you are Joseph? You either quit your job or you have another ring designed that is, monotheistically speaking, “kosher”. Among the Egyptians, the purpose of the ring was to deify Pharaoh, but for Joseph the purpose of any ring would have been to celebrate God. Biblical Joseph’s ring – found! | Simcha Jacobovici | The Blogs
The Avaris Semites fell on hard times after Joseph, and there is archaeological evidence that males were selectively killed:
“According to the archaeological evidence at Tell el-Daba, conditions then began to deteriorate with skeletal remains in the graves showing signs of malnutrition(Harris lines in the bones). Anthropological studies show that adults were dying in their early thirties. Strangely there were far more burials of infants and young children than normal(25%) for this sort of ancient civic society. Moreover there were more females than males in the adult grave population. For every three females there were only two males. Where had the adult males gone? The Bible provides the answer. The opening chapter of the Book of Exodus tells us that the Egyptians first enslaved the Israelites, then culled the male infants because the slave populations was getting too large and Pharaoh perceived this as a threat. Obviously, in archaeological terms, this would mean an increase in infant burials and a skew in the adult population in favor of females.” David Rohl, Exodus, (Thinking Man Media, 2015, p. 127
There actually may be evidence of the Passover and there is evidence of the Exodus at this time:
Passover
" But the literary parallels and evidence from recent excavations do not stop there. It is around the time that, according to the archaeological evidence, from Avaris, Egypt’s eastern delta suffered a terrifying calamity. At the end of Tell el Daba Stratum G, several large pits have been unearthed, in which where found scores of bodies tossed in as if by some act of emergency internment. Non of the nomal burial goods accompanied the dead. Bodies lay on top of each other, many face down, The suddenness of the calamity is obvious by the way that the bodies have been tossed into the pits. According to excavation director Manfred Bietak, these people died from a deadly and virulent plague. Professor hans Goedicke(of Johns Hopkins University) notes that just such a plague is mentioned in papyrus documents of he era following the 13th Dynasty and, interestingly from our point of view, the texts refer to it as the ‘Asiatic Diseas’–in other words, a plague specifically associated with the Semitic population of Egypt. " David Rohl, Exodus, (Thinking Man Media, 2015, p. 153
" The mass graves of Avaris–located at the end of Proto-Israelite Stratum G-0were Quickly followed by an abandonment of the Asiatic quarter of the city (on the main tell next to Ed-Daba village)–all approximately at the time of Dudimose according to the New Chronology. The Semites simply gathered up their belongings and left. Archaeology cannot tell us where they went… but the Bible does ." David Rohl, Exodus, (Thinking Man Media, 2015, p. 136-137
I will again point out that Rohl is an agnostic, not a believer. But he seems to have more faith in the Bible as a history document than do many Christians.
2 Likes
And “most archaeologists”.
Agreed Klax. I have seen group think in so many areas of science that I think the idea that science is about challenging ideas is utterly false. Science is about agreeing with the consensus.
When I entered the oil industry, I was told that if I used the term ‘overthrust’ and the “Gulf of Mexico” in the same sentence, I would be fired because consensus was, that there was no overthrusts in the Gulf. Around 1990 seismic had become good enough and the Mahogony well was drill which proved the existence of an overthrust there,(proved by paleontological data) which had been formed by salt collapse. Concensus was false. Now it is known that the Perdido fold belt is largely compressional tectonics, where overthrusts can occur.
In the 1990s, I was on Phillip Johnson’s Evolution list and the ASA list. The consensus of anthropologists was that there had been no Neanderthal interbreeding with modern man. I argued strongly for interbreeding because the data from the bones indicated it. I became an acquaintance of Milford Wolpoff, a strong advocate of interbreeding, having met him in London. I would point out data like this which shows a Neanderthal trait moving into modern humans:
mandibular foramen
European ……H-O…….Normal
………………Foramen Foramen
………………percent……percent……….
Neanderthal………53…………47
African Eves…………0………100
Skhul/Qafzeh…………0………100
Early U. Paleolithic…18………82
Late U. Paleolithic…….7………93
Mesolithic……………… 2………98
Medieval Europeans…1…………99
~ David W. Frayer, “Evolution at the European Edge: Neanderthal and Upper Paleolithic Relationships,” Prehistoire Europeenne, 2:969, Table 7, p. 31
Even though I was citing experts, and had studied anthro for over 10 years, and have a minor in anthro, people would tell me that I wasn’t an anthropologist, and that the consensus view was correct. (you can find archives of these at ASA3.org and Calvin college. )
People wouldn’t look or follow the evidence, they followed the ‘experts’. whom we now know to be wrong–Even in 2010 when DNA proved interbreeding, many anthropologists didn’t want to believe it. Signs of Neanderthals Mating With Humans - The New York Times
Today we know we interbred with Neanderthal, Denisovians, and a ghost lineage from Africa (newly found last year). Wolpoff was correct about interbreeding and the consensus was wrong.
In physics, for years it was the consensus that the cosmological constant was zero–didn’t exist. Until the late 1990s when a discovery overturned consensus. to physicists credit they quickly accepted the new data.
In anthropology it was long the consensus that modern man didn’t make it into the new world until Clovis time, about 11,000 years ago. That was the consensus, and it was defended stoutly by Vance Haynes who would ask for an endless series of dating of any site that appeared to be older than Clovis. The controversy continued years longer than it should have. Here is a description of the conference which broke the dam and allowed, Meadocroft, and Monte Verde (16000 years old) to be accepted:
“Then, suddenly and in a sense parenthetically, the talk turned to Meadowcroft, and Haynes told me and the assembled multitude that if only I would date just one seed or one nut from the deepest levels at Meadow-croft, he might be led to believe in t he antiquity of the site.
"That was it, I burst out in derisive laughter. Over the years, in scientific paper after scientific paper, Haynes had asked for yet another date, yet another study, raising yet another picayune and fanciful questions about Meadowcroft, most of which had been answered long before he asked them-not just in the original excavation procedures but in report after report. Up until this time in Monte Verde, I had complied.
. . .
"Horse%&#, I said constructively. I told Vance Haynes there and then that never would I accede to any request he made for further testing of the Meadowcroft site because if I did he would simply ask for something else in a never-ending spiral of problems. I explained that the matter of Meadowcroft’s antiquity was settled as far a s most other professionals and I were concerned, and that if any remaining skeptics did not believe it, I could not care less. I then stormed out of the bar with Tom to cool off outside in the parking lot.” J. M. Adovasio with Jake Page, The First Americans, (New York: Random House, 2002), p. 223-224
This Clovis consensus actually stopped lots of research that should have happened. American archaeologists didn’t dig deeper than Clovis, thus engaging in a type of confirmation bias.
Monte Verde also inspired researchers in North America to dig deeper. They have found possibly pre-Clovis remains in South Carolina and Virginia and are beginning to reinterpret findings at the Meadowcroft rock shelter, a site near Pittsburgh.
"This was how Dr. Albert Goodyear, a University of South Carolina archaeologist, discovered likely pre-Clovis traces at the Topper site near the Savannah River.
“I had stopped a little below the Clovis stratum,” Dr. Goodyear explained. “You don’t look for what you don’t believe in. But in light of Monte Verde, I thought, maybe this might be a place to look for pre-Clovis.” New Answers to an Old Question: Who Got Here First?
One doesn’t look for what one doesn’t believe in. That should be the motto of most scientistst. And I say this AS as scientist–a geophysicist. It applies to my discipline every bit as much as others.
And right now, Biblical archaeologists are making a choice to ignore Jospeh’s palace found in Avaris (Tell el Dab’a), which moves all the exodus stuff back 200 or so years at which time it matches with the fall of Jericho’s walls, and other stuff. Instead of saying oops, modern Biblical archaeologists are not dealing with that find, just as anthropologists didn’t deal with the bone data indicating Neanderthal interbreeding or American anthropologists didn’t deal with places like Meadocroft and Monte verde both of which showed older habitation of the new World. Consensus, is always king.
1 Like
Consensus is difficult to overcome, as you aptly point out. However, in all those cases, good science is what overturned the false ideas and replaced them with something at least a little closer to truth. As I was taught in lectures and I am sure many of you heard the same, “Half of what is taught is wrong, we just don’t know which half.”
Humility remains a virtue.
3 Likes
I love that Phil. I have spent my life challenging ideas. My first big hydrocarbon discovery was a 1000 feet from a dry hole. The dry hole was absolutely a killer. It had zero sand in its several thousand foot depth and we were looking for sand reservoirs filled with oil or gas or both. Everyone knew there was no sand in that part of the county.
I saw a characteristic signature of hydrocarbons on the seismic. My geological partner went and re-examined the well and found that the bad well had a big fault in it that faulted out the section where I saw the hydrocarbon signature. He went to check the land status and it turned out our company owned it but would lose it the next day if the rentals weren’t paid. We rushed approvals through management and paid the rent.
When the 6 million cubic feet per day well came in, a friend stopped me on the street, knowing that I worked for that company. he asked who was the blankety blank who paid the lease rental at the last minute. It seems my friend had ‘top-leased’ that land and wanted to drill what I saw. He was mad when he found out it was me and my partner. lol But we had to overcome the ‘consensus’ view very quickly that there was no sand and the kudos go to my geological partner for that one.
This topic was automatically closed 6 days after the last reply. New replies are no longer allowed.