Ok, if you think “We” are subjecting them to something when they voluntarily choose to do it, then we will disagree.
Then should people be required to sign waivers that they understand all the risks involved?
I am indifferent on that point.
I did not have to sign a waiver when I joined the military, but I don’t doubt that I would have.
What about public transit, like buses, subway cars, and trains?
What about public buildings like DMV, social services, post offices and courts?
You keep avoiding, quite studiously, any mention of any kind of setting other than bars and airport lounges. Why are you evading such discussion, Vance?
Best,
Chris Falter
I am not avoiding.
I am just not willing to pretend every venue is identical. To consider every venue identical is either confused or dishonest.
Why do you try to conflate optional venues, such as bars and airport smoking lounges, with less-than-optional venues such as public transportation?
I will be happy to answer your question about such things as common carriers, but I would first like to know if you can understand that a bar that allows smoking and is an optional excursion is different from a subway that people need to take to get to work.
This is not a complex differentiation, @Chris_Falter. Acknowledge that going to a bar is different from riding a train to work.
I have 3 beliefs about the question, Vance:
- All public accommodations should be smoke-free by law.
- A bar that is open to anyone 21+ years of age is a public accommodation.
- A private club that charges a membership fee, maintains a membership list, and serves drinks is not a public accommodation.
If you wish to disagree with #2, that is your right.
Bear in mind: I am not even asking you about #2. I have listed plenty of examples for public accommodations other than bars, and am asking you about those.
Best,
Chris
@Chris_Falter
Was that something you were not able to do?
I answered the question already when I explained that I consider both to be public accommodations.
We have been clearly disagreeing on the classification of public bars for several posts. Why don’t we move on to a discussion of what we may agree on: non-smoking laws for things that you, Vance, consider to be public accommodations.
I would assume your list includes buses, trains, subway cars, libraries, polling places, schools of every variety, courts, county buildings, state buildings, and federal buildings.
Feel free to tell me which of these you do not consider to be public accommodations, and I will grant whatever you wish in arguendo. So that we can have a civil and effective discussion, I specifically grant in arguendo that a bar is not a public accommodation.
Over to you.
Best,
Chris
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I’m not talking about the military. What if the cocktail waitress in the bar is pregnant but needs the employment? Should we let some smoking slob put her unborn child at risk?
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If you can’t see the difference between an optional trip to a bar and a necessary ride to work on the subway, then we don’t have a basis for discussion.
I don’t think the definition of “public accommodations” is relevant to this discussion, as the term does not differentiate between essential services and recreation.
Did you alter your opinion at the end of your post?
But:
“Public accommodations , in US law, are generally defined as facilities, both public and private, used by the public . Examples include retail stores, rental establishments, and service establishments as well as educational institutions, recreational facilities, and service centers.“
So, your granting is a rewrite of standard terms.
And if we make up our own definitions, we don’t have a common way to converse.
I think we have already discussed this, beaglelady.
I am sorry you are unhappy with the outcome of the discussion, but there is nothing that I can do to make you happy.
I agree with this definition. Having reviewed it carefully, I agree that the definition does not include bars.
Over to you, Vance.
Best,
Chris
I do not agree that “public accommodations” excludes bars.
And I don’t know why you think this rabbit trail is relevant to the discussion.
I guess I got the details wrong. Who knew?
Let’s try to make some progress, friend. You said that you think bars should not be required to prohibit smoking, but you also mentioned…
…as being different.
Should there be laws that prohibit smoking in subway cars, Vance?
Best,
Chris
You have reworded and modified what I wrote.
I wrote:
“If I were making the laws, I would allow bars to allow smoking. Smoking is a strong addiction, and I have compassion for those people. They ought to have a place they can mingle and socialize. I also would not have closed those small glass rooms in the Atlanta Airport where the addicts go to get a smoke. Those rooms did not hurt anybody.“
If you reword what I write, then we don’t have a basis for honest discussion.
You disagree with laws that prohibit smoking in bars on the basis of compassion for smokers. You explain your reasoning quite eloquently with the following words:
You also said:
This second statement possibly implies that you might make smoking regulations different for a subway car than for a bar – if you were making the laws.
However, I do not want to make any unfair or unwarranted assumptions about your thoughts, friend, so I ask:
If you were making the laws, would you prohibit smoking on subway cars?
Thanks,
Chris
Vance, it seems you remain much more interested in contrarian score keeping, and who said what rather than actually staying focused on the subject itself. And others here too should try not to get dragged into all the “but he said … she said…” contests. Those add nothing to any discussion, and in fact take away from it. If you want to keep this thread open, let’s move on away from all that and the finer legal points of what constitutes “public accommodation”, and see if there is anything else still worth discussing.
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Let’s not get carried away here. We have one treatment that’s been shown to improve the outcome of severely ill patients and zero treatments that have been shown to prevent the onset of severe symptoms.
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I agree this is unhelpful, @Mervin_Bitikofer, but do note I did not bring up the term “public accommodations” nor did I try to redefine it. I was simply trying to clearly answer a question that I had been asked.
When Person A’s answers are modified and reworded by Person B in a discussion, either Person B is confused, made an honest mistake, or is being misleading. To allow the inaccurate rewording to go unaddressed only makes the discussion more confusing.