The ANE cosmologists used geometric calculus and could predict Jupiter’s movement to within a fraction of a degree.
I was wondering why someone would go through this much effort to determine that the ages of the patriarchs were changed in the LXX to better match a Hebrew astrology to the current celestrial observations. I think I found the answer in the paper.
The answer to that question is the ages were changed to match the current zodiac to show the Hebrews did practice an astrology that match the 12 signs of the zodiac.
My response would be “so what?” It might scratch an academic itch but serves no useful function that I can see.
What were you hoping to get out of this paper? What questions did you think it was going to answer?
I’m a YEC and I wanted to try and think of a way to argue against YEC that might encourage a thoughtful discussion. Something different then the same old same old. Mostly because of this guys recent debate with MadeByJimBob Rondam Ramblings: Debate Post-Mortem
From the paper,
Figure 3. Assuming that the first conjugation of the sun and moon takes place on a celestial longitude of 00, the red dots indicate the number of years that must pass until a conjunction is found on a celestial longitude between 280 and 320. The dot inside the blue square indicates that the number of years is 1791/12 for the celestial longitude of 300. On the right is the amazing comparison between the ages of the Patriarchs in Genesis 5 (in blue) and the calculation values (in red).
Figure 5. Plots of the NMs within the cycle of 426 years that obtain a value between 200 and 400 (1/18 of the entire 5269 cycle of
months covering 3600), and only one year (179.0833) corresponds to exactly 300.
Sorry it took me so long to get back to you. If you don’t have time to read the paper I might be able to answer more specific question about it if you have any.
One thing I can not confirm is his description of the relevant parts of the mosaic. That they are in columns(?) that seem to map zodiac signs to the patriarchs. Because I cannot read Hebrew.
Biblical scholarship produces people who despise God because they paid money out of their own pocket to be taught lies.
Like I said, a bent view of things – in fact one that sounds like an atheist apologetic because it implies that the Bible is just lies.
You got me completely wrong. I know what I am talking about.
Do you have a reference expressly supporting the use of calculus, because the most I am finding is that some geometric abstractions were employed which could be utilized in calculus. But I accept your main point, that the Babylonians could predict planetary positions.
It seems pretty incongruous that most specific zodiac constellations are absent from the OT, and that the spare references which may brush on astrology appear to condemn the practice, and yet there would be this hidden code with much learned effort centrally embedded in recorded patriarchal ages. To what point?
whose zodiac?
No, I meant that lunar calendars and solar calendars are just how calendars were made in every ancient civilization we study, and those calendars and ways of measuring time are still used because they are foundational to our experience of time as embodied creatures on this planet. So the idea that 7 is important or 60 is useful is not something we need to show arose independently in some pure form from a specific culture. The evidence of post-exilic redaction in the Bible is usually based on linguistic cues from comparative linguistics because languages changed and evolved significantly over a thousand years, and texts that were transmitted orally for many generations bear the marks of the time period they were written down or compliled or reworked. We have anachronistic post-Gutenburg ideas about authorship and wide-spread literacy and the authority of the written word that we often unconsciously impose on the ancient world that gave rise to the biblical documents.
It appears his calling to a community role as a prophet happened as he was being educated. His dream interpretation begins in his youth (Daniel 2) and the details of his captivity and requests not to eat the king’s food during his training implies he followed Hebrew dietary law as a child and wanted to continue. I’m not suggesting anyone thinks the content of the entire Hebrew scriptures was composed Post-exile. I’m suggesting the manuscripts we have copies of were compiled, arranged, and redacted post-exile.
No, I think the cultural knowledge of the ANE milieu impacted the Hebrew people from their very beginnings. They did not become a people in a cultural and geographical vaccuum. I just read a bunch of stuff by anthropologist Mary Douglas (expert on ancient purity systems and Levitical law) and the Levitical purity laws clearly reflect common beliefs and taboos of the time as well as common understandings of sacred spaces and activities and profane or mundane activities. The Law was given to people with a culture and a worldview, to shape their practices toward the justice and peace YHWH required of them and to bring God’s desired order the conventional worship practices of the time and place. They weren’t just delivered from on high ex nihlo in a way that wouldn’t have made sense with their understanding of the world.
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Just how many biblical scholars have you met? worked with? gone to school with?
And why are you maintaining an atheist viewpoint about the Bible?
Why? Is this the part where you say you know more Bible scholars than I do, so that means I’m wrong?
No, I’m saying they are taught lies. I’m not saying the Bible = Lies. I have 2 Bible scholars in my family. One of them taught seminary at Holy Cross. Both are dead now. What difference does that make? It’s not as if I can’t read their publications or engage with several scholars daily over the internet when I want. I just debated one recently who was taught that Moses never existed and that the Jews believed it was ok to rape your neighbor’s virgin daughters, as long as you give the father a few Shekels afterwards. These are not uncommon views maintained by scholarship.
The 1 scholar I currently keep in contact with the most is actually a “drop out”. But I’ve been studying the Bible daily for 30 years and I am constantly seeking out people who can answer questions about the Hebrew language and ANE culture and perhaps give some historical context here and there about whatever I happen to be studying at the time, so I am constantly engaging with people who have had formal training in these things. Why would I not be?
It could be I misread/misremembered something. I’m pretty sure I am correct but I am not an expert, and I have no formal scientific training. This is just a hobby of mine. I’ll try to find something and get back to you.
Right. It’s odd.
I am wondering if God might have told the original author to write things a certain way and perhaps instructed that the reasons for it should only be disclosed to a select few per generation. Perhaps to keep some plan hidden from the enemy? We know that Jesus told people to keep secrets. So there’s that. And not everyone was allowed inside the Holy of Holies.
In Gen 18:17 God says “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am going to do?”, indicating that God is not always in full disclosure mode. Maybe there is something missing.
God’s zodiac I guess.
I see.
I get ya.
I agree with most of this.
So because a few biblical scholars you’ve encountered talk nonsense you slander all biblical scholars.
That’s both ignorant and unChristian.
Again, the ideas that Moses never existed and that the Jews believed it was ok to rape your neighbor’s virgin daughters, as long as you give the father some money afterwards, are 2 ideas which are both commonly held by the Biblical scholarship.
Commonly. In fact, I would go as far as to say that it’s a consensus.
Do you have any thoughts about that?
Based on the paper, the Jewish astrology is in the Talmud. The purpose of the paper, I believe, is to show the Jews at Ein-Gedi as early as the 1 AD used a 12 month astrology.
I am currently reading a history of the development of calculus (and have taken Calculus in college) and the Greeks developed geometric methods that later formed the basis for calculus as we know it. So it wasn’t calculus per se. Technically Archimedes used the concept of a limit, but didn’t call it a limit. The Greeks didn’t like the idea of infinity which is kind of important for calculus.
If He hadn’t, it would have been an even shorter ministry here on earth. The Jews tended to stone those who they considered to have committed blasphemy.
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That’s interesting, I don’t know much about the history of calculus. But I’ve seen many articles like this one, about a discovery that was made in 2016. Ancient Babylonian astronomers used calculus to find Jupiter 1,400 years before Europeans - ABC News
Perhaps they are a bit over sensationalized?
Right.
Yeah it is a bit over the top. The biggest problem, to me, is calling “geometric techniques”, which the article uses, “calculus”. There is a very long history to the development of calculus and a lot of “standing on the shoulders of giants” and perhaps you can say it all started with the Babylonians. If you need a rabbit hole to go down you might want to take a look at this.
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Well this might be one.. But Bill II points out that it’s over sensationalized
Ancient Babylonian astronomers used calculus to find Jupiter 1,400 years before Europeans - ABC News
BTW, you mentioned earlier that all the Jews had to do was count to 7 in order to know which days were sabbaths. This is not actually correct. Yes there were weekly sabbaths but there were other sabbaths were irregular and required seasonal adjustments. The Jews might also had reasons to try to record or predict the variable length of days, as these sabbath begin at sundown.
The Jewish month of Adar is sometimes observed twice in one year, as a “leap month” in order to reconcile the lunar calendar to the solar year. The author of the paper I posted doesn’t seem to make this connection but it’s part of the reason why Noah was thought to represent 3 celestial signs in the zodiac, Capricorn, Aquarius and Pisces, apart from Ein Gedi inscription.
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This looks great! Thank you!