The Age of the Earth is unknown from the Bible

Faith & Science Conversation
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Hi David,

Your name I love as it means ‘beloved’ in the Biblical Hebrew. It’s is so lovely for me to have you posting on this topic once more. I missed you and that’s because your very first post indicated that you had first hand knowledge with working with the Biblical Calendar. I most certainly hope you read my answers and that you were satisfied. But if not, then by all means do raise any unanswered portion from your first email and I will seek the help of my Heavenly Father to give you His Scriptural answer.

Now this time around you say that my gap is slightly different from so-called gap(s) in Genesis 1. I acknowledge from the Bible that I know of any such gaps. My Heavenly Father has only showed me one gap and it started in Genesis 2 with the seventh day where God rested from His work of creation and also rested from counting days as He illustrated by not stating the seventh day with the evening and morning clause as He did when counting off consecutively the first six days of creation. Now I don’t wish to get ahead of myself in my posts that I have already done but I will continue to write more on this counting by my Heavenly Father but after I first write it in an email as part 3 to various personnel at prominent YEC organizations. It’s fair that I do that since my gap affects their calendar and not any other calendar which does not give and exact year for the age of the Earth.

Now on Divine Inspiration, David that pertains to everything the Bible mentions including my gap that I was shown by the Holy Spirit, so it’s really my Heavenly Father’s gap. He downloaded that information to me and I wrote it out and try to keep explaining it to others. Now you might be thinking that I am claiming that my writings on the gap are divinely inspired. No, I make no such declaration anywhere. But I affirm that my understandings are given to me from my Heavenly Father and I give Him the praise for those downloads and do not pretend that it’s me that’s such a fantastic Bible expositor. For I have posted before this verse:

1 Corinthians 4:7 (LSB) For who regards you as superior? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?

I try to remember this verse which was the mindset always of my namesake so that I myself do not take any credit for the work in my assigned ministry and I make my work always free to those who receive it just like my namesake:

Acts 20:32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
Acts 20:33 I have coveted no man’s silver, or gold, or apparel.
Acts 20:34 Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.

My principle is always:

Matthew 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Therefore freely I was spiritually healed of my sins which sins were spiritually symbolic of illness, leprosy, death and being under the bondage of the Devil and his devils. So now I in turn give out the true Gospel of my Lord Jesus Christ by which He preaches by His Holy Spirit to save other elect from their sins of spiritual deadness, leprosy, sickness and bondage to Satan.

Thanks David and do write again soon.

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Hi again David. After my last post I realized that there is still a significant part of your post here that I had not made any comments on. On the subject of exact chronology, God does do that such as here, chronology exact to the very day and for the duration of the rain in the exact number of days:

Genesis 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

Genesis 7:12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

God keeps an exact chronology Himself and reveals portions of it to mankind as is relevant for them to know. Here for an example is God telling Adam of a particular day that sin and its judgment would come into the world, just not telling Adam when it would be:

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

And the very same is true that God tells mankind of the appointed final judgment day but not when it will be:

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

So yes, God has an exact chronology but reveals portions of it to mankind as He deems necessary even as He revealed to Noah when the flood would begin:

Genesis 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

Genesis 7:4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.

Remember too David that I posted earlier that the Old Testament Saints like Daniel compiled their own Biblical Calendar even like I did, but they only had the Books of the Bible that were already written. And I showed in that Post that Daniel knew by his calendar the very year Jesus would be born and the very year Jesus would be cut off from the land of the living. And Daniel set it out by the Holy Spirit in Chapter 9 of his Book but in hidden format.

So now I am answering your question ‘why wait and reveal it to you, after a few millennia?’ Well it’s simply God’s prerogative, David:

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Daniel 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Yes David, it is now the time of the end.

Thanks for sharing.

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Hi St.Roymond,

I would now like to address your quoted comments above. I apologize as what I wrote is not wrong but it could have been clearly spelled out but I went for brevity trusting that readers would understand that the Hebrew for ‘generation’ is also translated birth, as in a new beginning and is not necessarily generations as you are showing with Adam’s descendants. One of the primary purposes of this verse:

“Genesis 5:1 This is the book of the generations (plural) of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;”

Is to show that Adam had two spiritual beginnings as shown more clearly in the Young’s Literal Translation:

Genesis 5:1 (YLT) This is an account of the births of Adam: In the day of God’s preparing man, in the likeness of God He hath made him;

The first beginning of Adam was at his creation on the sixth day when he was made in God’s likeness (distinct from God’s image). Adam continued in this first spiritual beginning until he sinned and God’s likeness with Adam died and Adam’s own likeness resulting from sin began. God did not give us any timespan for the time that Adam existed with God’s likeness. But after Adam sinned and had his own likeness God gave us Adam’s lifespan since that he lived subjected to physical death:

Genesis 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
Genesis 5:4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
Genesis 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

Those then are the two spiritual births or two beginnings (generations) that God is contrasting in Genesis 5:1-5.

So Adam existed for an unknown time in the Garden in Eden while he had no sin. And this gap in time I have just today got AIG to acknowledge by return email of which I quote the relevant portion:

“Hello Paul, thank you for writing to Answers in Genesis….

Notice also that Genesis 5:4 lists only the total years of his life, not the years, months and days.
If as we contend that Adam fell less than a week (or two) after the 7th Day of creation, then he would have lived 930 years, not 931, nor 10,000 nor any other whole number. We never state that Adam fell immediately, in fact we go out of our way to state that it could not have been before the 8th day (for Satan) and the 9th day (for Adam and Eve).”

Well, I am currently writing a comprehensive response to AIG’s response above. Thanks, St.Roymond.

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This has been done. You just doubled down on your imagined failure of the inspired writers to be correct about things.

I’m not sure that will strike him as at all important.

My last year before grad school we called such things “my private heresy”. We didn’t literally mean that our ideas were that far off; it was a way to remind ourselves that speculation and conjecture are really bad ways to do theology.

One of mine was that the use of the King James Version these several centuries down the line linguistically was evil (I’ve softened that somewhat; I now compare it to what Paul says about speaking in a language no one understands).

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Grammatically that is an invalid assumption. Lacking the definite article, the numbers must be translated “a second day”, etc., with no way of knowing whether there was time between them, and if so then how much.

Given that your imagined gap cannot be supported from the text but requires believing that the inspired writer got things wrong, the above cannot be true.

Except that you just did.

The Hebrew תּוֹלְדֹ֖ת is never translated “birth”, even in the singular תֹּלְדָה. It can be rendered as “descendant(s)”, “genealogy”, “descendants”, and rarely “contemporaries”, but it cannot be translated as “birth”.

That’s what the word means. It can be used of a series of related events (as in Genesis 2), or of nations that are related, but when used of a person it indicates that what follows is a genealogy. It actually became something of a technical term by the time of the Exile or earlier.

Young’s is lying. I know what their reason is; they’re going back to the root verb, but by the time that Genesis was written the noun תֹּלְדָה had diverged completely from the root יָלַד so that the meaning of the root was no longer valid for the noun. A hint of the meaning is still there because תּוֹלְדֹ֖ת is indicating births, but births that followed someone, not the individual’s own birth; it tells of someone birthed from the individual, then someone birthed from the second person, and so on.

BTW, Young’s gets this wrong as well:

In the day of God’s preparing man

That’s not a valid translation, it’s theological interpretation – biased theological interpretation.

So the rest of your post is just the same nonsense you’ve posted before based on your bizarre approach of treating the inspired writer as incompetent – and treating the writer as incompetent necessarily entails treating the Holy Spirit as incompetent.

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Hi again, St.Roymond. What a bold statement: “Young’s is lying.” Well the Bible does state:

Psalms 116:11 I said in my haste, All men are liars.

So in theory it is possible that the Young’s Literal Translation is lying. But I wonder if there was collusion by Young with the Strong’s Concordance coupled with the KJV, for I see the same in the Strong’s that the Hebrew term is translated as birth:

“08435 towlëdah generations 38, birth 1; 39‭”

And here is where towlëdah is translated as birth:

Exodus 28:10 (KJV) Six of their names on one stone, and the other six names of the rest on the other stone, according to their birth.

But I see these other translations also have towlëdah as birth:

Exodus 28:10 (LSB) six of their names on the one stone and the names of the remaining six on the second stone, according to their birth.

Exodus 28:10 (CSB) “six of their names on the first stone and the remaining six names on the second stone, in the order of their birth.

Exodus 28:10 (NKJV) “six of their names on one stone and six names on the other stone, in order of their birth.

Exodus 28:10 (NLT) Six names will be on each stone, arranged in the order of the births of the original sons of Israel.

Exodus 28:10 (NIV) in the order of their birth–six names on one stone and the remaining six on the other.

Exodus 28:10 (YLT) six of their names on the one stone, and the names of the remaining six on the second stone, according to their births;

Exodus 28:10 (RSV) six of their names on the one stone, and the names of the remaining six on the other stone, in the order of their birth.

Exodus 28:10 (ESV) six of their names on the one stone, and the names of the remaining six on the other stone, in the order of their birth.

Exodus 28:10 (NET) six of their names on one stone, and the six remaining names on the second stone, according to the order of their birth.

Exodus 28:10 (ASV) six of their names on the one stone, and the names of the six that remain on the other stone, according to their birth.

Exodus 28:10 (WEB) Six of their names on one stone, and the six names of the rest on the other stone, according to their birth.

Exodus 28:10 (BBE) Six names on the one stone and six on the other, in the order of their birth.

Exodus 28:10 (NASB20) six of their names on the one stone and the names of the remaining six on the other stone, according to their birth.

Exodus 28:10 (NASB95) six of their names on the one stone and the names of the remaining six on the other stone, according to their birth.

Exodus 28:10 (HNV) six of their names on the one stone, and the names of the six that remain on the other stone, in the order of their birth.

Exodus 28:10 (AMP) six of their names on one stone and the remaining six names on the other stone, arranged in the order of their births.

Now St.Roymond, please tell me if all those translations colluded or are lying, or they all just somehow got their translation of towlëdah wrong for whatever reasons? Those are some powerful witnesses which I never knew existed until just now when I was led to start copying them out for you. So thanks for helping to steer me in this good direction so I can learn even more of what my Heavenly Father has in His Holy Scripture. Many times I have written to my fellowship that my Heavenly Father has an infinite number of methods to feed His sheep and there just are not set methods​:pray::pray::pray:. And I have invited my fellowship to read all the posts on this topic for I am in my ministry just like my namesake and I am made to pattern him even as he patterned Jesus Christ in his ministry:

Acts 26:26 For the king knoweth of these things, before whom also I speak freely: for I am persuaded that none of these things are hidden from him; for this thing was not done in a corner.

Now St.Roymond, every elect will have two births or conceptions that each lead to life. There is the natural conception in the mother’s womb that leads to physical life and at the point of salvation the elect is conceived again which leads to spiritual life:

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Now Adam being created perfectly had births or beginnings but in the opposite direction to those just described. He was created with the likeness of God which is sin free but that likeness of God died when Adam sinned and Adam’s own likeness resulting from sin was birthed in him and he lived another 930 years subject to physical death in his body and he died:

Genesis 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
Genesis 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
Genesis 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

But St.Roymond this post is long enough and there is so much more I could write so I will cut it right here. Thanks very much for your communications.

Paul Aarons

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Hi Paul, thanks for your response.

My version about Tree of Life is something like “keep on eating” they may live forever, not “one time eat” then they live forever. So… they still have age. Assumed they have a baby before the fall, the baby still have age, growing old. In other words, by default, Adam+Eve is mortal before the fall. And adding to my imagination, suppose that a devil can harm then kill Adam+Eve before the fall, they will die.

To my own understanding about your “Gap”, you don’t count the age before the fall because in your pov : “they already eat one time only, then they become immortal. Hence it’s unknown how long they have live in Eden before the fall. After the fall, they are back to mortal. So finally in your pov: the age calculation begin after they back to mortal”. Please cmiiw.

But that’s not my point of view. My perspective is that: Adam and Eve are mortal by default. So even if Adam always obeys God, in the long run, he will grow old and eventually die IF he does not continue eating from the tree of life.

Please don’t ask me, “Until what age would Adam appear old if he kept eating from the tree of life and always obeyed God?”, because I certainly won’t be unable to answer that. While I can’t even imagine the appearance of a 930-year-old man, let alone to imagine the appearance of a man hundreds of thousands of years old :joy:.

Besides, I put the story of the fall as to show that “no man (grown up human, not a baby or a toddler) will always be able to resist his own desire”. So… Adam+Eve is the first example to show that “no man (grown up human, not a baby or a toddler) will always be able to resist his own desire”

But to me, “very good” is when there is a balance. For example : if there is no “bad” at all, then how to define that something is good ?

Thanks.

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Hi, Paul. One of our forum guidelines (with my own emphasis added) states …

  • State your case and then respect other people’s right to agree or disagree. Avoid repeating the same ideas over and over because you have failed to convince everyone to accept your viewpoint.

I think it’s fair to say that you’ve been given ample opportunity to make your case here - and you have done so with exemplary patience and civility - even kindness (thank you for your good example in all that!) - which is frankly probably the main reason this has been allowed as long as it has. But even so, it doesn’t appear that you’ve been successful in persuasion (just based on my own glances at the thread). I’ll be happy to be subject to correction on that from any others here - If I missed something or if any others (not Paul) are intrigued and still wanting to interact over this. Short of that, though, let’s plan on wrapping this thread up - maybe allowing for a couple more [short] summary posts from Paul or any of you who who still want to get a last word in.

1 Like
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Hi Biologos,

This will be my last post on this topic as required by the above post by the moderator. I am not given to rule breaking. I strive always to obey.

I recall that I came on this forum accidentally. For I was writing by email back and forth with another person who was from another organization with ‘LOGOS’ in its name. And then suddenly in the next email I saw a link with ‘logos’ embedded and I clicked on it and got to this forum after registration. I then simply went ahead and copied the latest writing on my gap to this forum. But later I received an email from a moderator that said it was deleted with explanations of why it was deleted. So I was at first disappointed, for my efforts of registration went in vain. But then when I researched Biologos and saw that it was the world’s premier Forum of PhD scientists and I got frightened and scared and was quite happy that my post was deleted. So I went to do the dishes and while engaged in that activity my mind said to me:

“How big a deal is it for you to just resubmit the post after deleting the materials that the moderator does not want?. Don’t be afraid, you have never been let down.”

So I completed the dishes that Sunday afternoon and set about making the adjustments and reposted my first post launching the topic. And right throughout my many posts I have been in touch with another moderator who has helped and guided me with my posts which he read some of them before I post them having his permission.

Now, what I experienced while doing dishes reminded me of my namesake’s experience:

Acts 18:9 Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:
Acts 18:10 For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city (Corinth).

So thanks to everyone who read these posts and special thanks to those who participated and caused me to learn a great deal. Perhaps, in my Heavenly Father’s will, He may yet cause me to return here with another topic that is dear to His heart and one which will affect every member on Biologos and its brand new Scriptural understandings that I have only revealed to my daily Bible Studies fellowship group. No one else knows of such matters.

Paul Aarons

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I think this would be a good place to conclude this thread. Thanks to all who participated.