Struggling with this info that is new to me - Hebrews & Other Gods

You are very kind! I think I have a lot to learn. I think you have a very good heart. A lot of what you say are things I told my own parents about 30 years ago, too, when I was in my teens and 20s. So I agree strongly. I don’t know the answers to all of this, but I was happy to read that some of the big guys struggle about that, too.

These are good questions; perhaps we should try another thread; it’s hard to know. The mods can add.

Regarding Macdonald’s quote, I wasn’t clear. He was referring to reading the OT and NT–so, if it seems that God did something unjust, it’s possibly filtered through our eyes–but God can’t be unjust, if He exists, I think. So, the Bible may be wrong, or our translation, or copy, or something–but rather that than try to change good to evil.

MacDonald and Lewis propose that God never lets us go–is always willing to hear us out.

Good question on vindication and correction. I still am trying to understand it, but here’s how I have heard it so far. If you observe a mean parent who really doesn’t care about a child’s behavior so much as how he appears as a parent, or if he looks good–for example, punishes a child for doing something foolish in front of others, but didn’t mean anything wrong–that’s a parent who operates on a selfish whim. It’s the vindication of his majesty, not of righteousness. If you have a good parent, who doesn’t care how she looks when a child makes a mistake, but kindly takes a long time to explain things and protect her child from others–that is a corrective parent. You can see a good parent firmly punishing children till they finally get the hint (Roy Rogers said that some people learn by seeing, some by hearing, and some just have to pee on the electric fence). Sometimes, there is a role for firmness–but then it’s about the action, not about my dignity.

It can hurt like crazy. I like C S Lewis’ image of purgatory

Our souls demand Purgatory, don’t they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, “It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drop with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy.”? Should we not reply, “With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I’d rather be cleaned first.” “It may hurt, you know.”–“Even so, sir.”

I assume that the process of purification will normally involve suffering. Partly from tradition; partly because most real good that has been done me in this life has involved it.” ( Letters to Malcolm , Letter XX)

Also, he describes God taking off our old self like when the boy Eustace loses his dragon skin to become a boy again:

“Then the lion said - but I don’t know if it spoke – ‘You will have to let me undress you.’ I was afraid of his claws, I can tell you, but I was pretty nearly desperate now. So I just lay flat down on my back to let him do it.

“The very first tear he made was so deep that I thought it had gone right into my heart. And when he began pulling the skin off, it hurt worse than anything I’ve ever felt. The only thing that made me able to bear it was just the pleasure of feeling the stuff peel off. You know - if you’ve ever picked the scab off a sore place. It hurts like billy-oh but it is such fun to see it coming away.”

*“Well, he peeled the beastly stuff right off … And there was I as smooth and soft as a peeled switch and smaller than I had been. Then he caught hold of me - I didn’t like that much for I was very tender underneath now that I’d no skin on - and threw me into the water. It smarted like anything but only for a moment. After that it became perfectly delicious and as soon as I started swimming and splashing I found that all the pain had gone from my arm. And then I saw why. I’d turned into a boy again…" - C. S. Lewis, The Voyage of the Dawn Treader*

Sometimes, we don’t even know that we desire righteousness–but all our enjoyment of this world really ends up being useless, till we know what really matters.

I look forward to other thoughts.

Thanks

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Trippy…thanks for sharing. The author of the post that you share has an intriguing vocabulary, for sure. If we can get around the disrespectful tone, we would have to take the various topics or citations one at a time. “Hear O Israel, the Lord your God, the Lord is One!!” (Deut 6:4…later affirmed by Jesus in the gospels)…the issue of the nature of God—of Israel’s God (the only One, per the Bible) is a subject all on its own and not one that I suspect your source has the patience for. Also hard to “do” justice to here. And the Dead Sea Scrolls are “not” the Bible, but they do have most of the books from what is called the Old Testament…a really amazing “find” for those who wish to study text history. That is still another subject for which your source shows no patience. Christianity being “a lie” would not be something deduced from the Dead Sea Scrolls, of course, because they precede Christianity…although the Scrolls DO, in places, bear testimony to a long-held expectation that a Jewish man would soon appear who would be both Messiah and God (another matter which your source seems to glide over)…and the Son of God Scroll is referenced by modern scholars in that sense. There is more, of course, and the Dead Sea Scrolls biblical texts compared to later Masoretic texts are “surprisingly consistent” with each other “given years of copying, …They don’t seem to be intentionally changed in any major way.” This remark was made earlier this year by a lecturer at a biblical archaeology conference that I “Zoom attended.” I suggest that you look into some of those other sources as well. Don’t just go with “one guy” on Amazon.

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I have always loved the Shema. To this day.

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28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”

29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[f] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[g] There is no commandment greater than these.”

Yes, so apparently Jesus did affirm monotheism as very important. Though this is obvious even without that verse.

Vinnie

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Maybe

Or perhaps not? Who knows?

I assume you talk about God in the Old Testament particularry.For me 90% of what he commanded or did is completely justifiable.
In contrast to Jesus who always forgive and never punishes i prefer the Old Testament punish and hardly forgive.

From my own life experiences he is as distant to provide help as Zeus is.Meaning when it comes to "strengthen you " and etc etc he doesnt exist.Hes not there.Hes not hearing you

I agree .However

A parent punishing his child in front of no one and scholding him is guaranting the child wont do that again.
The parent who will kindly explain to him and tell him kindly and with love what he did was wrong the child is guaranteed 99% that it will do it again. I was rarely hit when i was a child .But when the slaps came i knew there was no way of doing that again.Smooth talking and love scholding did nothing and i always did the same thing.Because as i said humans dont care.They just dont.We only understand consequenes.

Thats just universalism to me. Again purgatory is not just.Not at all .Far from it. Why would God want to clean us in the first place if what we did here on earth is worst than what the devils did?
If he gave us free will our actions reflect our characters hense our decisions.If i make a decision to be a bad person my whole life why would God take that away and “clean” me? Its my desicion let it be.
Thats also true for repentance.If what i did i did it in a full concious ,sane-state of mind why whould you forgive me?You gave me the free will to do that i did the opposite i choose theres not going back.Its over .Now to face the consequnces. It sounds harsh but its just

Let me be completely clear.Im TOTTALY FINE going to hell because i know i did mean things in some parts of my life.Im completely fine with the idea as long as other people who deserve heaven end there even beign unbelievers.Thats the ultimate just system.
Certain small mistakes that hasnt hurt nobody or somone like small lying etc etc can be forgiven.But big lies murder etc etc that have destroyed entire families are not forgivable in my view and should not be.
Personal gain and bad ambition is what have killed humanity .Selfishness and pride. Thats why in my belief system i put these aside and am willing to responsibly suffer for all eternity for the things i did that cant be forgiven .But as i said the ones who didnt do these must enter heaven.They deserve it

Nitsche said “if you stare into the abyss, the abyss stares back at you”

That can happen to the man of ressentiment. He’s convinced that his various disabilities are caused by someone or something out to get him, and that if only the scourge were eliminated from the world all would be well.

If this is your attitude, Nietzsche is saying, you’re going to get really good at ferreting out the nasty parts of life, wherever they might be hiding, and you’ll uncover one hitherto unrecognized injustice after another: first racism, then structural racism, then elitism, then heteronormativism, ableism, lookism, microagression etc etcYou may get to the point where you can see nothing but monsters.

Thats my ending point sadly.Ive gazed far too long in there.
This world is nothing but monsters and demons. A broken world with no repair.

The thing is i didnt choose this.I didnt choose to turn this way.I didnt choose to go trough some really hard life experiences.Yet God or the Devil or the universe deemed me to be worthy of such .
Some difficulties can break you beyond repair,some can even kill you.
I could have lived my whole life without experiencing the feelings of betrayal ,abandoment .loneliness,rage and hate and generally humanities worst traits . Ive known sadness for far too long and it doesnt seem to leave me

I wonder how many like me who life wanted to play games on didn’t make it. How many didn’t conquer depression. How many offed themselves because they reached their breaking point. How many resolved to drugs.How many went insanse.And all these while the people that caused their problems live happily ever after with their families continuing to do bad and poisoning this world. And the universe or God allows it freely. And then you are telling me they get the chance to end up there with the rest of the good people? By just being sorry in their deathbed? I’m sorry Randy but Lewis and McDonald got it wrong. No purgatory serves justice for what they did on earth. No amount of forgiveness will convince what they did was bad. No amount of love. Only punishment is just. Only punishment will make them feel the way their victims did. Only suffering. I don’t want to believe God forgives these people. And I challenge that idea.

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I looked up word Ugarit, and found out The Ugarit word
(gezer) means “young man”

My question is what is a human?
Is human a God or not a God?

What is God?

What is “el” refers to gods other than Yahweh and Allah?

When I allow unconditional love in me teach me, am I then doing this that you quote above?

I think we are supposed to have unconditional love for God and treat others the way we want to be treated—regardless of their position or social status. It’s easy to love those who love us, but we are called to love everyone. Even the dreaded tax collectors and Samaritans.

I am not sure what you are asking but if you live by God’s love and will I would say yes. The key to being a better father or husband is to put God a first in your life. The rest tends to work itself out in my experience.

Vinnie

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Many people have heard of Baal as the god of the city of Ugarit, but the pantheon lists repeat his name seven times, suggesting that he appeared in different manifestations. He is not human or god just a myth.

Figures and stelae at Ugarit and the wider Syro-Palestinian area show Baal in various guises, often depicting him with a crown and scepter or thunderbolt and weapons, sometimes in a smiting pose and standing on mountains.

Baal’s female equivalent, Baalat, is also attested as a divine name and epithet from the third millennium BC onward. She is often associated with goddesses of fertility and birth or specific goddesses of cities

Other Canaanite deities were often equated, divine names conjoined, and attributes, tools, and places deified, causing much debate about who or what the Canaanites considered to be divine.

The Ugaritic tablets are useful for understanding the nature of the religion in Bronze Age Canaan; Egyptian, Mesopotamian, Hurrian, and Hittite ideas would have influenced, as well as been affected by, Ugaritic traditions.

All the existing texts are connected with royal or official religious institutions, not the religion of the general population. People throughout Canaan worshiped many deities, as indicated by theophoric names, toponyms, biblical texts, and inscriptions; over 150 Canaanite gods can be found in the Ugaritic texts (Pardee, Ritual, and Cult at Ugarit).

The structure of the Canaanite pantheon can be compared to a divine family or governmental hierarchy, and the concept of the assembly of gods seen throughout the ancient Near East can be clearly seen in the Ugaritic myths. The following are the most prominent Canaanite deities.

WHAT ABOUT El?
The common Semitic term for God is etymologically difficult, but El is clearly the high god, and head of the divine assembly. While there were regional differences in the pantheons, the view that Baal rebelled against El and took over as chief god has very little textual basis.

Ugaritic texts describe El’s dwelling as “at the source of rivers”; a Hurrian hymn calls him “the one of the mountain,” possibly referring to his divine assembly which convened on a mountain.

The Ugaritic epithet “Bull El” demonstrates his strength toward other gods and men, as does the fact that he is considered to be the father of mankind, the “creator of creatures.”

This attribute is supported by the existence of a Canaanite myth attested in Hittite, in which the chief god is known as Elkunirsa - El, creator of the earth. In addition, El can cure disease, is shown to be benevolent and good-natured, old and wise, and is referred to as “holy.” While thousands of bronze figures from late Bronze Age Syria and Canaan may represent El, his iconography can be difficult to ascertain with certainty.

Then there is Asherah

Asherah is the principal female deity of the pantheon, probably the consort of El and the mother of the gods (the “70 sons” of Asherah). She also intercedes with El for Baal and Anat. The Ugaritic texts call Asherah “of the Tyrians, and the goddess of the Sidonians,” but she was worshiped over a wide area, sometimes under the name Elat, meaning “goddess

Most information about Asherah has been found from Ugarit, including sacrificial and pantheon lists, mythological texts, and theogonic tales. Roman human leaders were called gods. You’ve also got Mot,
Dagon, Astarte, Shemesh /Shaash…should I go on? These are all mythical beings that people considered holy and they offered sacrifices and worship…THOR the movie has brought some of them back to life.

All the above exclude YAHWEH.

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That is my point. The term “el” is probably just a generic term, similar to our word “god.” As a result, it is not surprising that it is used to refer both to Yahweh and to pagan Canaanites gods.

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my assumption in reading your response is that you may not theologically read the bible or care much for its contents. I accept that I am completely at odds with the majority of users of this forum (most are here because they are evolutionists first, then potentially Christian second). I disagree with that view simply because I am philosophically Christian first, and I study Christian theology deeply…i do not see it possible to reconcile the issues faced by TEism. Perhaps one could blame this on a requirement to study a little Philosophy in Christian Education as part of my university degree back in the 90’s, however, in looking at the various worlds views presented to us at the time, it was universally obvious back then, and remains such today, there is no space for TEism in my world view…its simply untenable. That is because anyone who is honest with themselves knows full well, it is the philosophical that drives the need to study the physical. Science does not come before philosophy.

I say the above because the Bible does provide the answer to exactly those two questions you sprouted…it is the only place where that information can be found anywhere in antiquity from an account that is also backed up by:

  1. extensive archeological evidence,
  2. first hand accounts of the existence of it characters from external sources (study “Polycarp” for starters)
  3. philosophical consistencies with life as we know it today (ie follow 10 commandments and universally, you will be happier even in secular society all around the world),
  4. medically (live according to the biblical health principles and your life will be healthier and longer)…

anyway, I think it irrelevant that one should attempt to use physical evidence to explain God. If that is what you are searching for then I suggest you will never find Him.

The following story comes to mind in answer to this…

11 1Kings 19: Then the LORD said, “Go out and stand on the mountain before the LORD. Behold, the LORD is about to pass by.”

And a great and mighty wind tore into the mountains and shattered the rocks before the LORD, but the LORD was not in the wind.

After the wind there was an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake.

12 After the earthquake there was a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire.

And after the fire came a still, small voice. 13 When Elijah heard it, he wrapped his face in his cloak and went out and stood at the mouth of the cave. Suddenly a voice came to him and said, “What are you doing here, Elijah?”

Greetings! I’m not sure I understand. I don’t think you are saying we should we approach learning with prejudice against what we may learn–right? God is the God of all truth, is He not? Should we consciously reject some of the truth, because we don’t like it, or it doesn’t fit in our philosophical desire (it’s nice to fit it all in a certainty of a given idea/faith framework, but that doesn’t mean it’s true)

I am sorry if I am misunderstanding this post.
Thanks.

BTW I really like the passage from Elijah–the portion before it, especially, when God deals gently with a man who was at the end of his rope. I have a lot to learn from that.

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Wrong! Absolutely wrong.

Most of us Christians here are both Jesus-following Christians and accepters of modern science including evolution.

You malign us by accusing us of putting our acceptance of Christ as somehow in second-place to our acceptance of science. Please desist from such mis-characterisations.

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Aboslutely I am saying that. Probably many won’t realise this, however, in reality all education is indoctrination…it’s never unbiased because of culture as just one influence.

So yes, we should do exactly that.
The real world outside these forums consistently uses science to set the stage for philosophical argument.
The truth is, science cannot explain the philosophical…Michael behee intentionally remains agnostic on the question of the biblical account and I believe for good reason…he accepts that science can’t explain God. We can use it to find evidence of God, but not prove he exists. That is a philosophical argument. This does not however put science in front of philosophy. I am a strong believer that we are driven by the questions of epistemology…these provide the driving force to want to search for knowledge. Yes science is a mechanism…but interpreting its data is the issue here…one cannot possibly demand Darwinian angle when dealing with the Bible…it simply doesn’t work theologically.

Wrong. There is no demanding of an ‘angle’, it is just the recognition of truth – the truth that God has revealed in the Bible and the truth he has revealed in creation (if there appears to be a conflict then you are interpreting one or the other or both incorrectly). Theologically it’s no problem if you believe God is sovereign. Are you familiar with God’s providence or is that a foreign concept to you?

This ignores the fact that the verses of the Bible that TEism claims to be an allegory are self reveling truths…they are foundational to all Biblical doctrine. The entire theology of the Bible hangs on the fourth commandment in Exodus 20…“for in six days God created the heavens and the earth”

I find it amazing that people came to me with stuff like, I’m just using my own interpretation…I am not interpreting anything in that verse…it is an identical repeat of Genesis chapter 1 summarised in a few words.
This is also the first part of why Seventh Day Adventists worship on the Sabbath. It has nothing to do with Jewish tradition…where were the Jews in Genesis 1? God took the Jews into the desert more than a thousand years later, not to teach them something new, it was to remind them of something very very old.
I ask you to consider…am I the one interpreting Genesis chapter 1 as an allegory, or is a TEist doing that by claiming because it doesn’t fit the Darwinian model, it must be an allegory despite almost all literary experts denying it is…they universally recognise that it’s a narrative.?

Clearly the latter is the case in that the TEists are interpreting outside of the meaning of the text.

Clearly you are insisting on a myopic interpretation that does not comport with the rest of reality, not to mention insisting that your interpretation is infallible. It’s not.

Remember that God gave the book deal to the Jews. They looked back in faith and wrote the book. Let’s not edge them out.

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Because it’s not true of any state education I received from even primary school on.