Thanks for your words, would you be willing to share more about that journey ? Whatever you are comfortable with and where it is you are now ? Thanks
Thanks for your message, where would be a good place to start reading you think ? Lots of resources being linked here and I am finding it difficult to have a starting point. thank you
I’m a little time constrained now, Tony, but I’ll make sure to reply properly as soon as I can.
This is my first book. It’s the current end of a theological journey that began in my 20’s. I just wanted to share with people that an evolution view of the world is compatible with the main Christian doctrines, and how it can fit in with the specific Franciscan spiritual life I embraced in 2003. It’s also part of my desire to show that Christians from different traditions can sympathetically embrace each other and work towards the common good despite any differences of beliefs.
Hello again, Tony. My personal observation is that everybody has their own set of questions. Therefore, it is hard to just say “Read this and all your problems will be solved.” I wondered how any book that has been transmitted down the centuries could actually have been passed along with any sort of accuracy for thousands of years…how could people in pre-literate times pass an account of any event --presumably historical–along when they could not write. And this was just my “issue” initially. It also seemed to me that no one focused on the Middle East was going to answer a question on that score without themselves thinking they had to give me their view of the Bible and its accuracy or not. I did not want someone’s viewpoint, I just wanted to know whether or not someone or any people-group could pass stories (which had to have been transferred orally for the most part and for a long time)–how they could do that…and so I read a lot about the Ibo in central Nigeria…the natives of the Hawaiian islands and of New Guinea… the Aztecs …whatever…I also read about mnemonics …and the field expanded to other subsections of the whole “how could they ever have passed this down and not changed it a lot?” sort of question…And I found myself curious about the veracity of other things that I had “heard” long ago…for ex., a fiction novel from the early 1970s which, at some point, had a footnote saying that there were records about such and such an event…well, I wondered, WERE there really such records…the event was a biblical event that was stuck in the footnotes of a single page of a 700-page book–but I just wanted to know if the information was really accurate–information about extrabiblical sources (according to the author of this book) about events that accompanied the crucifixion of Christ…and this led me to libraries where I asked librarians how to find books referencing that particular historical (presumably) event that is part of the gospel accounts…yes, I became a pest. And yes I did walk into the same library on four different occasions and ask librarians (who may have had their own issues) whether or not there really ARE records of a darkness over the Middle East at the time of the crucifixion of Christ…and how would I find that out? A librarian once told me that I read the “oddest books.”
Ignore the librarians of this world…it’s your own search…beyond all that, this is how i have done things…attend classes on historical subjects related to the biblical text etc…God is not as nervous about us searching around as maybe our fellow human beings are…at any rate…this is a long answer to your short question. The search for you may need to take a slightly different trajectory..
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Thank you, I find your answer very honest and logical. I think I want to make a shift in my literature and I think the first point is to start somewhere. It sound silly but I think I will just start reading the bible and see where it goes from there. I read it as a kid but I am not sure what I was reading, I was too young to question or comprehend. And from there, I think I can, or maybe God can show me the next thing to read. Thanks again for taking the time to write the kind words.
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You are welcome. I also eventually started reading the Bible…once I was comfortable enough with knowing where it came from (or at least somewhat having an idea!)…and I use commentaries, sometimes more than one since I want to see other points of view…..I heard someone at church once tell others that she “read Leviticus by faith.” Well, yes, some of the Old Testament books can be obscure. And then I took a class and was referred to a book that made Leviticus “NOT” a “by faith” read. This is not an endorsement of Leviticus over other books of the Bible, BTW. It just represents aspects of the text that are especially puzzling –and maybe “outdated” – to our minds. Read to understand….at least for the most part. Anyway….enjoy the journey!
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Hello there! I hope my input here is helpful to what you were wondering.
I grew up Christian (not Catholic) in the US and several years ago I had a journey of realizing that I had a love for science and figuring out how that fit into this faith, since many see a problem between them. I felt some doubt, but ultimately I didn’t let go of my faith; there was too much value in it and my experience with it just rang true.(Of course, it’s still a journey and I’m not saying I have all the answers). The general conclusion I’ve come to is that to have faith you do not need to sacrifice anything intellectually. Science should pose no threat to belief in God since he is the Creator, so whatever we discover in the natural world, he put it there.
On your mention of having a hard time reconciling supernatural things in the Bible, I would say that in a way they just demonstrate God’s sovereignty over nature. Miracles are not scientific things, but rather, I suppose, exceptions to science. And if anyone can make exceptions to the laws of science, it would be the maker of science himself. That’s what makes them miracles. It seems like an insult to God to suggest that he cannot perform “supernatural” acts, that he is bound by scientific laws himself, when in reality he is greater than them. Giving miracles a scientific explanation seems to discredit their significance.
With reconciling science and faith, my main resource and inspiration was Biologos itself, which my dad introduced me to, and reading Francis Collins’ book The Language of God was interesting too. Sometimes I visit this forum to see other people’s perspectives and thoughts, and there are for sure some varying opinions here.
Also, I feel like I’ve gotten the sense that there is definitely some difference between Europe and the US regarding religious culture, but I haven’t actually visited Europe and I don’t know too much on that. My experience in the US is much like you said. I grew up in a non-denominational church that is still thriving and definitely has an inclusive, helpful community.
Lastly, I definitely urge you to continue to talk with your friend and ask him about his journey in his faith, especially since you’ve had such similar experiences. I’m glad you are reaching out for help and I hope you continue to explore your questions.
“The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.”Colossians 1:15-17 NIV
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One needs to have some grasp of epistemology in order to make any sense of the subtlest of human communication and belief.
Of course no one can be expected to sign off on affirming all statements of faith asserted by a religious institution in advance of a person acquiring the wherewithal to make any sense of those assertions.
So how do you like your UU experience? I’ve toyed with the idea of exploring that experience but I’ll wait until my wife passes as we were both naive physicalists when we met and I don’t want that to create an unnecessary division between us.
UU’s are a decidedly introspectively humorous sort.
Some UUer’s say UU is devoted to “Atheists with Children”.
Others use an older saying that it was created for Jews with children living in a Christian nation.
Over time, a more common saying is that “Unitarian Universalists tolerate
virtually anything except intolerance.”
My favorite aphorism is: “The only difference between the two denominations
before they merged was that Universalists thought God was TOO GOOD to
send anyone to Hell, while Unitarians thought HUMANITY was too noble for
God to want to send anyone to Hell.”
Historically, the protest movements within both denominations during the
Sixties were so robust that when they kept attending the same protest events,
they decided to save some money and merge!
In the Eighties and Nineties, Buddhism and “New Age” topics dominated
discussions.
Ultimately, if the denomination was kind enough to welcome someone
like me, then it must be exceedingly tolerant … and WISE! 
G.Brooks
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Welcome to posting, @Vigggwhirhb , or Kara4. Good to have your input. Regarding this statement, I would have to say, maybe or sometimes. I do feel that God can work miracles within the bounds of physical laws, though some times he may go outside them. All the miraculous recoveries I have seen in medicine have a rational explanation, but their occurence and timing were miraculous in that they point towards God. I am reminded of a time when a friend of ours toddler developed a childhood cancer. When further investigated at a major medical center, the biopsy proven tumor had completely resolved. In the course of events, the child’s father found Christ. That was the true miracle, as 20% of that type of tumor resolves spontaneously, but you atheist, Buddhist, Hindu or Christian.
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Protestant theocracy teaches that once saved always saved. In other words you are justified by faith. However saving faith does indeed show itself by good deeds. Catholics theocracy states that mortal sin by a Catholic that is not confessed to a priest will still send them to hell. There was something called perfect contrition that can achieve forgiveness without a priest but it was considered dangerous to trust it to avoid damnation.
That is painting with too broad a brush, and it is debated as to what that really means in protestant theology.
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Not all protestant churches accept OSAS. Here is what the Catechism says on these issues:
1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."612 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.613 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”
1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."131
1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: "Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother."132 The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.
1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.
Also, for those who want to understand what the RCC teaches, they doesn’t treat salvation as a some sort of magical incantation where you say some words and are done. It’s a lifelong process that is only initiated by the grace of God through Jesus.
These really aren’t issues worth debating on this website so I leave them here for the interested reader. The comment “catholics can be saved” warranted a response, however.
Vinnie
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Totally understandable. Most of us have had similar thoughts. In my case it was important to read the scriptures and assimilate them. I also found understanding in alligning scientific and historical evidence with scripture. Lastly, believing that God was the creator of everything and had our salvation predestined before the creation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-10) God is capable of anything according to his will. With that as bacground the scriptures for me are more meaningful. However, it all comes down to faith regardless of knowledge and understanding. Faith is that Jesus died for our sins to give is eternal life with him.
If something happens, a rational mind can always figure some kind of explanation to what happened. In medical cases, if there are no other explanations, we can always use the words ‘spontaneous healing’. What these words tell is that we do not know how the rapid healing happened but such cases have been reported also previously. After giving the label (spontaneous healing), it is possible to put away the case as something ‘natural’.
I agree that timing is a very crucial point when we are talking about potential ‘miracles’. If a confirmed cancer disappears ‘spontaneously’ at the moment when someone prays for healing, that may be treated as a ‘miracle’. If the ‘spontaneous healing’ happens otherwise, we are more likely to treat it as a ‘natural’ event, although we do not know what caused the ‘spontaneous healing’.
The timing is important also in the ‘less miraculous’ answers to prayer. One pastor told during this week about a situation that happened in their free church. In a November meeting, the leading persons noted that their budget calculations showed that they were 100’000 below a balanced budget. They concluded that the church workers needed to be temporarily laid off to balance the budget, unless something changes soon. They decided to give some time to prayer before the unwanted actions. A short time after they started to pray, the leading pastor got a phone call from a lawyer. The lawyer informed that a woman had died and in her last will, there was a legacy of 100’000 for the church. Nobody in the church knew the woman or had any idea of what her connection to that free church was. Whatever the background was, the donated money was exactly what they had asked from our heavenly Father. Most would perhaps not count that as a miracle but the timing made it an answer to prayers.
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Thank you very much for your kind words. I have to say it felt good to read your take on this and I think you gaev me good advice. I think I will get the Francis Collins book and find some time to talk to my friend too, as we still havent found the time with kids and all, life is busy. It is good to hear that you had your dad to support through this, I wish that was my case. My dad has not been a church person until he got really old and starting fearing death, he went to church a bit and then eventually he stopped again. Thanks again and hope to chat again soon.
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thank you for your kind words. I will definitely include the scriptures on my reading list
Thank you for sharing this link. Faith that fails before the finish is indeed flawed from the first.
Saving faith endures. Protestant and Catholic teachings seem closer than I thought.
Wouldn’t it be great if all Christians can be united into one church of Christ.