Struggling With My Faith

Not sure if anyone responded to this:

From a comment:

@timhaldeman7285
1 year ago
The song has no title and you won’t find it anywhere but here. That’s because the singer, Ken Medema, actually composed the music and lyrics on the fly. He is blind and has the wonderful gift of listening to someone’s story and then immediately composing a song that captures the heart and theme of the story. The song simply did not exist prior to Pete Enns talking. It came into being only as Ken Medema listened to Enns describing his struggle with doubt. Amazing talent!

he is legally blind from what Insaw elsewhere and another site says he does write songs on the fly.

Walls coming down windows going up! Wonderful song.

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Hi Mycha, (nice name),

The path you have chosen can seem a little scary some times, but many people have taken it and ended up with a stronger and broader faith that encompasses science and faith without contradiction.

Stepping outside of your Fundamentalist beginnings is a first step, but you will need to replace that with a supportive faith community and a lot more information. Mainstream Christianity, as distinct from Fundamentalism, should be able to provide that. However, I am not sure what you mean when you say that an Anglican affiliation has opened up more doubt in your mind. If you can explain what you mean, others may able to be helpful.

Generally speaking, faith is not held in the absence of doubt, but in the face of it. It sometimes helps to know that those who don’t believe in a God are also involved in an act of faith. What if they are wrong?

When it comes to Biblical literature, the same phenomena occur as in English language and literature (and other languages, of course). Literature takes different forms and is meant to be read in different ways. When the author of the poem, “The Highway Man”, states “the Moon was a ghostly galleon …”, he wasn’t suggesting that Earth’s natural satellite was made of wood. In the same way, there are different genres of literature in the Bible, and they are not all meant to be read as if they were to be taken literally. Coming to terms with that requires gaining a familiarity with other literature that is contemporaneous with the Biblical literature, such as the Mesopotamian creation stories. We cannot assume that the genres of an ancient literature were exactly the same as those in English today. This brings us to a discussion of things like “myth”. What do we mean by the word “myth”. Unfortunately, there are two different meanings of the word “myth”. In common usage the word “myth” often means something is false or untrue. Like the saying, “today’s medical facts are tomorrow’s medical myths”. However, a technical meaning of the word “myth” is of a story that conveys the values of the society which created it. It should be approached in the way an indigenous person once said of his people’s stories, “I don’t know whether this story actually happened, but I know that it is true.” Obviously the truth conveyed here is not a literal truth, but a real and important one, nevertheless.

However, with undergraduate and postgraduate degrees in science under your belt, and doctoral studies in science underway, I’d suggest that you approach things from the scientific side, rather than the theological. An interesting resource person for you might be Alister McGrath. McGrath was an atheist who commenced doctoral studies in biology and his studies converted him to faith in Christ. He went on to gain three earned doctorates and is a prolific writer in the field of science and faith. He became an Anglican clergyman in a country in which the Anglican Church is still called the “Church of England”. (England!)

It helps to know that science has always played an important role in mainstream Christianity – a fact about which Fundamentalism has been blissfully unaware. Science used to be called “Natural Philosophy”, and since in Christian thought God is the Creator of Nature, the study of Nature has for centuries been seen as a source of revelation about God. The study of “Natural Philosophy” gave rise to the study of “Natural Theology”. This gave rise centuries ago to the theology of the Two Books – the Book of Scripture and the Book of Nature. And Christians have for the past two millennia argued about the relationship between the two “Books”!

I read The Language of God and didn’t get a lot out of it. McGrath’s books have been more helpful to me: Darwinism and the Divine. Evolutionary Thought and Natural Theology; takes an historical approach and helps one to avoid the mistakes of the past in thinking through this field of thought. The Open Secret. A New Vision for Natural Theology; is another worthy of your time. See McGraths website here: https://alistermcgrath.org/

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Like you, I’ve found McGrath’s books helpful. In addition to his theology books, I have a 3-volume set of his young adult fantasy novels (with Christian themes, of course). He’s a versatile fellow, indeed.

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28 posts were split to a new topic: Two accounts of creation or one in Genesis?

That’s a good point – it would be useful to know. I basically breezed past it assuming it referred to the Anglican lack of insistence on how to read the opening of Genesis.

Yes. And it should be noted that it is not possible to tell what genre a given section is from reading it in English, especially since they had genres that aren’t found in English literature.

That’s a superb statement of how the ancient near east viewed stories about divine matters.

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It is also a very good description of Jesus’ parables (except of course that we know the events in the parables didn’t actually happen).

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I have read this book recently. He is a great man. However, to my opinion, it’s an omission that he doesn’t address the Intelligent Design Movement. In fact, for me his natural theology is superficial.

But I admit, I didn’t make the move from ID to TE yet. I am biologist and I see irreducible complexity everywhere I look in biology. The deeper you dig, the more complex. And that makes me curious about christian biologists that changed their minds.

My question to Mycha is: what made you to dismiss ID and accept TE?

Mycha. You are not alone. Faith implies that knowledge is not complete there remains always some doubt. Otherwise we would not call it faith. However, faith becomes belief and hope. We can never be fully certain but have made a decision to follow the belief.
I this regard I wrote my first book To Know with Certainty because in John 17:7 in his prayer to his father, Jesus said that his disciples know with certainty concerninhg Him. So I set out to find the evidence that we would know with certainty as well. Believe me, there is plenty.
You mentioined Genesis 1-6. I am just finishing my latest book Reflections on Genesis that aligns the evidence from science with the Genesis narrative of events. There is an amazing correlation that I believe removes any mythological label from Genesis to one of these events really happened. FYI I am an old earth creationist but always guided by the fact that the Bible tells us what God did and science tells us how He did it. Wish I had more time and space to explain.
Lastly evolution properly explained does not discount God as creator and the originator of man. Just stay away from positions that flatly promote evolution over creation when in fact evolution may be the process for creation. Also realize that evolution is not without its faults as science is beginning to show.
I too enjoyed the Language of God many years ago. The Genetic code itself speaks to an intelligent designer.

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I moved the discussion of the one vs two creation stories in Genesis to a new topic as it is has strayed from the intent of this post onto tangents.

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Welcome to the forum. I am a scientist who has also struggled with my faith in the “truth” of the Bible. I have come to realize that all translations of the original Hebrew text have been literal translations. When the Bible talks about the creation, in particular, it poses a unique problem. Scientists do not translate the data from the natural world literally. They translate it epistemically. In order to make a valid comparison between the biblical account of creation and what the creation itself tells us, they must be given the same form of translation. If we apply an epistemic translation to Genesis 1:1-2, it says, ‘In the beginning God created space and matter, and the matter was without form and void. And darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was vibrating over the fluid matter’. While the biblical creation story may be literal nonsense, it is epistemic brilliance. It gives the Bible a unique credibility. Words and their meaning are a human creation but we had nothing to do with the creation of the natural world. Limiting God to a literal translation of words is putting human limitations on God. There is more to the epistemic translation of scripture, but this is an important example. It may be useful to recognize that all scriptural and philosophical writings are ‘Opinion Literature’ that will primarily appeal to those who have an aptitude for that opinion. Truth is the opinion that you have a passion to believe.

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Thank you for what you have shared.

I often think of life as rather like crossing a river on stepping stones. There are times of apparent safety and stability (when we are standing on a stone) followed by times of instability, doubt and fear (when we put out our foot to reach the next stone.)

I do not have all the answers but personally I did it find helpful to read Melvin Tinker’s book Reclaiming Genesis : A scientific story - or the theatre of God’s glory?

Some of the talks by John Lennox (Emeritus Professor of Mathematics at Oxford University) have also been helpful. These are available on YouTube.

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@MychaAshlee - humanist with a slight Quaker streak here (unfortunately, most questionnaires asking about religion don’t have an option for “it’s complicated” :joy:)
All joking aside, I’ve just read a transcript of a lecture by the Quaker Astrophysicist Jocelyn Bell Burnell called “A Quaker Astronomer Reflects: can a scientist also be religious?”. Here’s a quote from it that I think may help with your predicament:

“Some consider doubt a weakness, but for me it is far healthier than certainty, although it does need to be seen as something open and flexible, not disabling. As has often been said, certainty rather than doubt is the opposite of faith.” Hope this helps.

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(I think fear is the opposite of faith, when we are told we have a trustworthy Father, and it is what Jesus reprimanded the disciples for when he calmed the storm on Galilee.)

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4 posts were split to a new topic: Translating ancient texts with modern terms

Mycha:

  • After a brief exchange with Burrawang, in the “Evidence for evolutionary creationism” thread over an article by Shaun Doyle in the Creation Ministries International: website, entitled Do I have to, believe in a historical Genesis to be saved?, I had what I call “a divinely inspired revelation” which I share with you here with the hope that it will give you peace in your own personal “struggle with your faith”.
  • Initially, Burrawang, a 70+ year old, near life-long Young Earth Creationist [i.e. “a YEC”] deeply entrenched in the YEC worldview, posted these statements, quoted from Doyle’s article:
    • "Simply put, believing Genesis is history, by the Bible’s standards, isn’t necessary to be a genuine Christian.’

    • “But there is a very important “but”. The history of Genesis is integral to the Gospel. If there was no literal Adam and Eve in a literal garden with a literal tree and a literal deceiver, and there wasn’t a literal Fall—then Jesus is literally irrelevant.”

  • Upon reading those two sentences, written by a young editor of a leading YES resource and affirmed by a devout, old Christian, I was dumbfounded. How, I asked myself, could these two men say that believing Genesis is history isn’t necessary to be a genuine Christian, then turn around and say that not believing it is history makes Jesus irrelevant." That didn’t make sense to me, and I told Burrawang so.
  • He, the elder YEC, then tried to tell me that the reason for my confusion was due to my failure to understand the context. At that point, I became very annoyed and responded angrily.
  • Upset, I struggled, not with my faith, but with my anger. After at least an hour, I exhausted my brain re-reading the two sentences again and again, And then then the revelation hit me:
    • The first claim clearly says: "Although the Bible doesn’t say that a person has to believe in a historical Genesis in order to be a genuine Christian, the second claim clearly says: “YEC says that failure to believe Genesis is history makes Jesus irrelevant!!!
    • The first claim is true; the second claim is false. Nothing can make Jesus irrelevant.
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My go to on that subject is looking at Philip and Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8. He was reading from Isaiah I believe, and Philip shared the gospel in context with that and he was saved. No need for anything else but the gospel, orally transmitted. Now, the Bible is important to further our knowledge of God, but not for salvation. And it is important to look at the Bible appropriately to get knowledge of God from it.

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Here is a link to a brief video of John Lennox answering some questions about God and the beginning of the universe.

John Lennox Discusses the Beginning of the Universe

I hope it may be of interest to some.

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I’ll add that in my experience it connects with non-believers better to just point to their own brokenness; quoting the Old Testament drives people away because it isn’t something they have any connection to.
Paul on Mars Hill is the model: he started with what the Athenians already believed.

Which leads me to a point: my experience with the Creation issue started with the text and only later connected with the science, and there is nothing in the text that even tries to say anything about science and thus no reason not to believe the Earth is ancient. So though you’re reaching the issue from a science starting point, just know that starting from the other side does not lead to a YEC viewpoint.

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That is absolutely amazing.

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