A warm welcome to you, @EvanFlick! Thank you so much for your post and your willingness to step forward with honest questions. I grew up in a rather conservative Christian home and Southern Baptist church. My beliefs about faith and science were tested, strained, and modified during my undergraduate and graduate education in Biology, but thank God, I never had to go through the personal turmoil of a “faith crisis”. My thoughts and prayers will be with you!
You have already heard from several of our frequent posters, and even a moderator, and hopefully their input has been helpful. Although I have not been through the same struggle you are currently experiencing, you may find some of the BioLogos history helpful (About BioLogos | Science and Faith Working Hand in Hand - BioLogos). Dr. Francis Collins (founder of BioLogos, and current Director of the NIH) was deeply influenced by the book “Mere Christianity” by C. S. Lewis. It is a relatively short read, but it has tremendously impacted lives for many years.
As @Christy mentioned, please feel free to speak up regarding any specific questions you might have - there are a LOT of people here who love to answer questions!
Thanks for all of the replies! I probably will not get around to addressing everyone, so if I do not please refrain from being offended.
@Christy, for specific questions I suppose I am struggling with a slippery slope. If the Creation story and the story of Noah are not to be interpreted literally, then how do I know what other parts of the OT I should interpret metaphorically. Just anything that does not seem one-hundred percent scientifically sound, like other miraculous events or even other stories that were supposedly history? I feel like I cannot trust anything, so I am now skeptical of just about everything.
I realize that the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus is particularly strong, especially for an event of ancient history. So do I just say, well the OT was partially inspired by Near East religions and meant to be interpreted metaphorically so its bogus, but the NT is still legit, and just run with that?
Lastly, after reading many arguments from atheists, I just get worried that religion in general was simply a made up phenomenon to explain things to fill in gaps. I understand the differences between Christianity and say, Roman paganism, but who is to say that Christianity was not just derived from a made up Jewish religion. I don’t know if that makes sense, but I am saying if the OT is made up then Jesus would have been full of it because he frequently quotes the Old Testament.
I know that’s a lot to answer but feel free to have a crack at any of the questions or ask for any clarification. Thanks for the support.
I think the idea that Prophets of old had to speak the truth and nothing but the truth is a modern twist on prophets.
With the paternalism of ancient society in general, the idea that someone would take an old idea and make it true by making it more worthy or inspiring seems much more likely than that a prophet became worthless if he passed on legends from the past. They all passed on legends from the past… Even philosophers who weren’t so impressed with religion!
Hi, Evan – I’ll throw my welcome on the growing pile; don’t feel obligated to respond if you don’t want to. I’ll just pick up on one of your comments.
This is one of those interesting objections that begins to dissolve into the larger backdrop mystery of why anything is at all. Nobody wonders why God created time. We just accept that it is our context and how things work. So if God had created everything in 6 days or even just 6 seconds we would still have the occasion to wonder why it took God that long. If it is proportion that disturbs us (that humanity was only around for the last sliver of all history) then ancients and all of us should have been equally disturbed about how tiny our spatial portion of the universe is (and some were / are). I have heard at least one atheist advance this as one of his arguments that the universe was not designed for us. Eventually one begins to realize that all these objections are a little far into our own perspective-centric egos. Not that these things have answers – it’s just that they don’t make for very good objections either and reveal more about us than they do about our universe or even what should count as knowledge of it.
Blessings to you as you continue your quest. Don’t let go of your skepticism just yet. After it has disposed of some of the weaker religious fundamentalisms that die so hard, keep it around for all the anti-religious dogmas too.
Why would God do anything? Our ways are NOT God’s ways, but God’s ways are good, even if we do not understand God.
Have you ever asked the question, Why wasn’t I born rich? (or maybe born poor)? Really it does not matter. If you were born in a different environment, you would be different and not be you.
Be glad that God made you to be you. God made us to be ourselves and to deal with the problems God created for us, not to live someone else’s life.
Who we are is not based on how God created the universe, but how God created us, one day at a time.
It is not a very responsible exegetical approach to read a text and say “Well, if it matches what science says or what is historically likely, take it literally, if not, it’s a metaphor.” That is an unfortunate caricature presented by people who feel threatened by having their interpretations challenged.
No responsible Bible scholar is actually approaching the Genesis or other OT narratives that way. If I come to the conclusion that Jonah is not an objective historical account but is a kind of theological drama intended to teach about salvation, judgment, grace, and the character of God, it is because there is evidence in the text itself that points to interpreting it that way. It’s not because I refuse to believe a man could live in a fish for three days. If I think maybe the story of Noah has been mythologized or appropriated for a purpose other than strictly recounting history, I need to argue that from the text and the cultural context as well as from the rocks and the artifacts. If I see the seven days of Genesis as a literary structure that frames God’s ordering of creation and purposes for it and a polemic against the deities and religious beliefs of the ancient near east, instead of a blow by blow account of the literal order and events of physical creation, it’s because there are abundant textual reasons to interpret it that way. It’s not because I refuse to believe God could speak the universe into existence in six days.
There are lots of reasons to approach the Gospel accounts with different interpretive lenses than the first eleven chapters of Genesis, or Revelation, or Paul’s letters, or the Psalms. Plenty of brilliant people have spent their lives studying these texts, the cultures that produced them and the cultures they were in contact with, and they offer tons of insight into how the stories were understood and used in their original context. We shouldn’t think that we should be able to sit down with our translated Bible and the Holy Spirit and understand everything there is to know. We can understand enough to know the truth about the important things, but some of the details are hard. Some interpretations are highly debatable and we just don’t know for sure. There is work enough for a lifetime putting into practice the things that come through loud and clear though, so at some point you have to decide not to sweat the small stuff.
I think these two blog posts highlight forum conversations that touch on some of the issues you bring up, if you are interested.
So I suppose that evolution can be reconciled with God, but what about psychology? All I hear is that modern day psychology invalidates faith in God or any religious experience. Is this true?
Well, there are some people who think love can be reduced to chemicals and electricity, beauty can be reduced to rules of symmetry and math, and every act of altrusim, generosity, faithfulness, or grace is fundamentally some form of self-preservation or self-service. That’s a pretty tragic and sub-human perspective, and though some people might claim it is “scientific,” it’s hardly representative of what most therapists are going to tell you about life.
My personal opinion is that “evolutionary psychology” is a crock. That opinion is not specific to Christians. Rational Wiki calls it “a field is notoriously full of woo and cranks producing theories that are either proven wrong or cannot be disproven to promote bigotry.”
To add on to what @Christy said, you should be aware that not everything you are hearing about “what pyschology says” or “What science says” is actually true. You will encounter professors and classmates who will stray from the objective path of real science, in order to advance a philosophical agenda. Too often, especially in academia this agenda is not friendly toward religious belief. So then the question becomes, how can you tell what is true, and what isnt? That is not a simple question to answer. But notice that its very similar to the question you asked before about the Bible. How can you tell which parts are literally true, and which are allegorical or poetic?
In both science and theology, there are no easy answers, and this is the core of the lesson you are learning now. You were given easy answers, and you had the intellectual power and courage to see that some of them just didnt add up. The same is true in science. To quote Christy, some people think that[quote=“Christy, post:16, topic:35778”]
love can be reduced to chemicals and electricity, beauty can be reduced to rules of symmetry and math,
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But that makes no sense, does it. The same goes for many of the pseudo scientific statements one can find everywhere: “There is no such thing as free will” “Consciousness is an illusion” “Humans are no different from apes” “The universe created itself” And none of these falsehood are any truer because someone puts “Science says” in front of them.
So how can you tell what’s true? On this forum there are many scientists and theologians and scholars of all kinds. We dont know what’s true either, but we are actively trying to find out. What you need to do now, as Christy said earlier, is not worry too much. Read, ask, think and take your time. There are lots of resources for you here and elsewhere. Dont worry about getting all of it right, this journey takes time.
Just keep one thing in mind. God made us to question, learn and grow. You are out there doing exactly what God’s plan for you is. And trust me, you will be following this path of understanding and knowledge your whole life. The good part is that you are not alone. Christ is with you every step of the way. And so are we.
Actually, Science is a composite of Belief and Observation:
Is Science in conflict with Religion? No! Religion is an integral part of Science. Extrapolation is a Belief that helps us stretch the Observable thinner and thinner, thus forming our Religious Beliefs as we get further and further away from the Observable. Since Religion is the base layer of our personal Knowledge and part of the individual Scientific views, to the extent that we all agree on the Observable, “Science in conflict with Religion (or Philosophy)” is instead a “conflict between individual Religious Beliefs”. More… Philosophy, Religion, and Science – NonLin
Of course this doesn’t point you towards any one particular Belief. Just remember that “Non-Belief” is Belief too.
I was brought up the other way around: as a skeptic and great believer in ‘scientific explanations.’ So I came in from the other window, so to speak. I have been a Christian just over 20 years, converting in my 30s, and have never once believed in YEC. What brought me to faith was the wisdom and beauty of the NT, and various forms of the Ontological Argument. I would never have been, and still aren’t, convinced by the Cosmological argument, or any argument based on “stuff.”
I would read CS Lewis: Mere Christianity, and Miracles. Also, Augustine’s Confessions Book 12 talks about space/time.
Regarding the millions of years issue: English only has one word for time, but in Koine Greek there is Kronos and Kairos (chronological vs ‘God’s time’), as well as two words for life: bios and zoe.
Evan…I know you have gotten other responses. You grew up in a church environment whereas I did not. I did however, once becoming Christian in college, hear the young earth view. At some point I decided that if I accept what archaeology and science (and etc) have to say that back up biblical events, then I had to deal with those things in the Bible that have no corroboration – at least not so far. I think (without going on too long) that it is possible to throw out the baby with the bathwater on all this. You seem to be considering that approach and I would advise you to hold onto the baby, please!!! The statistical likelihood of all this universe – incl you and me-- coming together by chance is nil. All you have to do is to have a major illness to realize how carefully we are put together. The universe at 13.8 B years is way too young for a bunch of accidents. Read Polkinghorne. …and others.
But the issue is greater than whether the universe is old or young, as you suggest in your note. And for me, the issue is resolving itself on a number of fronts — studying issues of text history (the biblical text that is), oral or written transmission of information – this has helped answer some questions for me. I also spent a lot of time studying one of the books of the Bible (I picked Daniel because it professed to be historical and also touched on all those controversial end time issues that people get excited about) and read every commentary and monograph I could find on it liberal and conservative, Christian and Jewish, Catholic and Protestant and etc – going back to 433 AD which was the earliest. Reading the different controversies over historical data in the text — did Belshazzar really exist? how was Nebuchadnezzar’s name really spelled? etc – and how they changed or ceased to be controversies over time…this also helped give me perspective on one book of the Bible – as a way of getting a better grip on the whole Bible.
Another thing that helped is reading magazines devoted to biblical archaeology – and books by conservative as well as liberal people on this subject. Reading classical historians also helped me to learn more about some details in the biblical text and how they reflected the reality of the times in which they were written.
In short — I know, this response is not short — I have looked into a lot of areas, not just one. It is not just a matter of evolution to me. That just is the subject that stirs people up. And no, I do not think the modern world and its techno=prowess has buried God for good. The modern world is like many earlier eras. People may have had superstitions in the past, but we have our own today. There are a lot of issues in the modern world that are not comprehensible or solve-able without God in the picture.
And of course many big issues may remain unsolvable with or without God in our picture – as God doesn’t seem to be reducible to one of the tools on our tool belts. But it is such a nicely loaded tool belt we’ve been given! And for that, I’m thankful to the Giver.
Evan, thank you for expressing your good and very reasonable questions. God is faithful to reveal answers in accordance with one’s questions. Questions are an indication of one’s readiness to accept challenges to their limited understanding and to then recognize with appropriate awe the expanse of God’s answers. No one should be alarmed at the seeming depth of their doubt or developing disbelief – that is just an indication of the magnitude of the answers God will provide as one faithfully continues the journey. We demonstrate we are ready to learn when we ask of God (James 1:5-8). Ask and you shall receive, seek and you will find, knock and it will be opened to you (Matt. 7:7). This is a promise from God. Looking from the perspective of God changes the view of everything!
Evan,
Yes! I have been in that position indeed and I struggled 40 years before I found my answer.
It is indeed unfortunate that Young Earth Christians (YECs) continue to propose only one answer, and then when young Christians go to college become overwhelmed by the preponderance of scientific evidence to the contrary.
Ironically, my non-denominational church is about to embark on a series around Creation or Evolution, and featuring the recent movie “Is Genesis History?” and even bringing in the producer of the movie to speak at our Sunday services. I met with our head pastor and gave them the BioLogos critique on the movie and expressed my concern how teaching young earth history with bad science, will only lead to loss of many young Christians when they go on to college. I am afraid you are one of the potential victims, but God bless you for asking for help.
The pastor was open to my comments and hope he heeds them and at least provides the counter viewpoint of “Old Earth Christians”. The key point is that OEC is NOT heresy, and YEC carries with it the burden of losing Christians. Jesus warns that you dare not lead one of my little ones away from me.
But to answer your questions on how do you explain it all, God has revealed concepts to me that I believe are true, relating to time dilation explaining how a day to God and the Holy Spirit is different than a day to us now looking backwards, and how through quantum physics God being infinite in time can overcome the uncertainty principle and choose his creation. You can find a basis for this in science, and in the bible (to God a day is like a thousand years). I have just drafted up something that I believe provides an explanation of Genesis per these biblical and scientific principles, and maybe someday it can be a blog on BioLogos.
But in the meantime believe this: there is TRUTH, and after 40 years of my personal search for this truth scientifically, and philosophically, I came back to God, Jesus, and the Bible and the this TRUTH. As Jesus said, “seek and you shall find”, as long as your heart burns for the truth. Jesus will not let you down. He will bring you home.
** I personally think such actions are reserved for incredibly important and unusual circumstances**
Strange then that creating human beings with which to populate therefore is not incredibly important and a very unusual circumstance in your view.
Very strange.
Hi Evan,
I was once in your situation and just in the nick of time God pulled me back from the brink and led me to Jesus.
If one examines the evolutionary paradigm one comes back to the fact that life needed to arise all by itself from purely random chemical and physical processes. This in itself is in stark contradiction to the very basic principles of science that we know and in fact requires a blind faith in the magical properties of material that must have existed wayyyyy back in the past.
As for God sparking off the first life and then letting it “evolve” over billions of years - as biologians must believe - that simply means that it is NOT the same God as the one in the Christian bible. It is a worship of another god altogether.
The bible is clear - everything was created in 6 days. This is clearly stated in Genesis 6 and then confirmed in Exodus 20:8-11 and Exodus 31:17.
Anyone saying anything in contradiction of these words of necessity has to mangle and wring the plain reading and meaning of the words to suit their own point of view - mostly to justify a belief in something that is impossible.
To get another view on the issues at stake please go to creation dot com or answersingenesis dot org.
There you’ll find that it is fully possible to believe in the total bible text PLUS have no fear from real science. The myth of evolution and abiogenesis is a lie of the biggest proportion.
But as always - it’s your choice. To believe the bible as written or to accept the just-so stories of people who believe in the age of rocks rather than accept the word of the Rock of Ages.
The gospel is clear, but the Bible is rather difficult in places. Put the original text in you hands, and you could probably not tell whether to read the Hebrew from the right or the left, much less make any sense of it.
We all must rely on interpretation, and the particular human interpretation you are relying on, that of AIG. is sadly lacking in depth and understanding of the original text, and projects modern science on words that are not purposed for that. Ultimately, that leads down the road of doubt when the it is realized the “science” of that worldview is a house of cards,
This poster has been corrected multiple times on his misrepresentation and misunderstandings of what evolutionary theory says and doesn’t say, and multiple attempts have been made to explain evolutionary creationist exegetical approaches. It is probably best not to engage, and just smile and nod and wish him a nice day.
