Stages of spiritual development?

I’m late to the party, but in a sense y’all are late to the party. I wrote a bunch about this stuff in relation to Genesis 2-3 five years ago. I’ll try not to inflict too much of it on you.

Children from birth until about the age of 7 are hard-wired to trust their parents, teachers and every adult in their path. Otherwise, it would be impossible for children to learn. Imagine a first-grader who doubted the teacher’s word that 2+2=4, or one who doubted that squiggly line drawn on the paper actually represented “two” of anything.

“Social learning” (or enculturation) is how kids come to understand what is “normal” speech and behavior in their culture. They trust their elders and imitate what they observe. If they have abusive, sadistic parents, they process that as normal and treat others accordingly, and vice versa. Look at the Ten Commandments. After the first four, which are specific to the worship of YHWH, the rest is stuff that every parent in every culture teaches their kids: Respect your elders, Be loyal to your family, Don’t hit or bite others, Don’t steal, Don’t lie, Don’t be jealous. The basics.

Morality develops in tandem with the brain and language. Children acquire the full grammar of their native language by about 5, but they don’t develop symbolic thinking until the age of 7. Simultaneously, that’s about the time most kids stop believing in Santa and lose absolute trust in their parents and teachers. They learn adults don’t always tell the truth. (Interesting footnote: prior to that age, our brains are subject to “childhood amnesia.” The only memories most people retain from childhood are those associated with trauma or deep emotional resonance. The rest are random fragments.)

So back to McClaren. His first two stages of spiritual development are entirely natural. Quoting myself:

In his 1932 classic, The Moral Development of the Child , Jean Piaget studied children of various ages playing games and concluded that the younger ones regarded rules “as sacred and untouchable, emanating from adults and lasting forever. Every suggested alteration strikes the child as a transgression.” This matches quite well the attitude of many interpreters toward the command not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge. The first humans should have accepted it without question, obeyed it and, presumably, lived forever in paradise. But is unquestioned acceptance of the rule truly a mature moral choice? I’d suggest that condition belongs to the state of childhood.

After age 7, children begin to take in a wider range of models to consider: peers, role models in the community, role models in the media, etc. By the age of 10, they’re capable of truly metaphoric thought, and by adolescence many often rebel against the norms they learned in childhood.

To quote myself again:

Updating Piaget’s work, developmental psychologist William Kay observed, “A young child is clearly controlled by authoritarian considerations, while an adolescent is capable of applying personal moral principles. The two moralities are not only clearly distinct but can be located one at the beginning and the other at the end of a process of moral maturation.” In what could be called the first instance of peer pressure, the serpent introduced doubt from the outside, and the woman determined her personal moral principles vis-à-vis the command. She applied her own moral judgment, a phenomenon that begins in adolescence and continues throughout the rest of life, and weighed whether the rule was hypothetically non-binding and contrary to her own self-interest (the fruit was “good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom”). The universal nature of temptation and sin appears at the end of a process of moral maturation that all children undergo. In the end, the adolescent applies her own moral principles, considers her self-interest, and declares her independence…

Everyone undergoes this process, including those who cling to authoritarianism into adulthood. They just feel guilty and pray for forgiveness every night. I don’t think it’s infantile, but to me it’s a childish way of looking at the world.

I don’t think everyone without fail reaches the “perplexity” phase, because not everyone is a thinking adult. Most do, but again, it’s not a spiritual phenomenon.

McLaren’s final phase is reserved for mystics. The rest of us worry.

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I find that an interesting assertion. I find my current faith aligns quite well with that description.

Richard

Edit.

This is niether boasting, nor anything else. I neither created, nor validated the scale. By the scalel I quoted I am proably nearer 7 than 10 (with no desire to get higher,).
My faith is what it is. I do not compare it to others or expect it to be compared.

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Silly. Most are reminiscing about things learned 4 or more decades ago.

And thus I long ago refuted the notion equating sin with disobedience as well as the identification of disobedience with the essence of the fall. I often declared that I don’t see rebellion as having anything whatsoever to do with the story in the Garden. To reiterate my position. I think sin consists of self-destructive habits and it is blaming everyone and everything but themselves which is the original self-destructive habit in that story of the Garden.

I don’t think it is the intention of many of those talking about stages of spiritual development to claim this is a “spiritual phenomenon” in the sense you imply. As a psychologist, Peck especially, will have thought of this as psychological. They call it “spiritual” simply because it has a bearing on what are identified as spiritual matters/issues/behaviors in human life. In fact, I would not be the least surprised if most do not even believe in “spiritual” things as referring to something supernatural but see it as a subset of the psychological.

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Perhaps we need to establish a few thing. Stages implies both progression and levels and comparisons.

Although such things nust exist they are only of intellectual use. The momentt they are applied they become devsive, hierachical, and competetive.

Scripture basically assigns such level to God’s blessing and/or creative discression. As such we have litle or no control over what faith we are given, or what talents/gifts. we are given. (parableof talents etc)

Comasrison is often harmful or the start of complaicency or even superiority. Once you start dpwn that road humility vanishes and respect is not far be=hind it.
That is not to say it can’t be used for motivational encoragment as long as the examples are so far removed from imdiacy to prevent undue worship o admiration.
The momnent you start identifying people higher up the scale than you and therefore “autroities” or worse “role models” you detract from God’s own instruction or tutoring. and risk breaking the first commandment/
(the start and finish of ad-hominem)

Richard

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I agree in part but I would think that understanding that there are stages could help one to avoid making odious comparisons if it was recognized that the difference observed was not something personal but rather intrinsic and so necessary as well as unavoidable.

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But how can you compare?

I have a very firm and secure faith but there are many here who look down on my theology and calim it “unbiblical”. So

I would quietly claim that a faith based on Scripture alone is weaker than one with a wider base. (And more vulnerable because it relies heavily on tspecific undersatnding of text)

whereas, someon who has thaqt sot of faith will claim that mine is inadequate or false because it does not match theirs.

It depends on what you value, how you think, what you need to support your faith, what could (if anything) knock you off your faith.

I have known many so called strong Christians devistated by an event and suddenly without a faith at all. Their so called stage proved false.

Faith has to be one to one with God alone. we cannot risk even looking elsewhere.
(IMO)
Richard

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Or instructive and healing – it depends on context and use.

Paul told people to imitate him, which is making himself a role model.

BTW, FWIW, “the saints” were originally people set forth as role models as people who excelled in imitating Christ – only later did they become figures to pray to/through or venerate.

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i doubt your claim there because the following texts overwhelm what you are trying to claim…remembering these passages of scripture are many hundreds of years apart, by different individuals, and yet make the same historical statements. Lets also not forget that the passage in Matthew is recording Christs own words (the very same Christ you believe is the messiah who died for the sins of mankind)

Instead of ignoring…read the texts below…it is 100% untenable to continue to make the context, genre, language tripe that you are pushing there

Genesis 1 1Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. 2And by the seventh day God had finished the work He had been doing; so on that day He rested from all His work.a

3Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because on that day He rested from all the work of creation that He had accomplished.

Genesis 6
5Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great upon the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was altogether evil all the time. 6And the LORD regretted that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7So the LORD said, “I will blot out man, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—every man and beast and crawling creature and bird of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them.”

13Then God said to Noah, “The end of all living creatures has come before Me, because through them the earth is full of violence. Now behold, I will destroy both them and the earth.

17And behold, I will bring floodwaters upon the earth to destroy every creature under the heavens that has the breath of life. Everything on the earth will perish.

18So the waters continued to surge and rise greatly on the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the waters. 19Finally, the waters completely prevailed upon the earth, so that all the high mountains under all the heavens were covered.

**

22Of all that was on dry land, everything that had the breath of life in its nostrils died

**

Exodus 20:8-11
8Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God, on which you must not do any work—neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant or livestock, nor the foreigner within your gates. 11For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth and the sea and all that is in them, but on the seventh day He rested. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and set it apart as holy.

Mark 10:6
6However, from the beginning of creation, ‘God made them male and female.

Matthew 24:37
38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark. 39And they were oblivious until the flood came and swept them all away.

It would be good to remember that we interpret the biblical scriptures through our worldview.

What you claim is completely rational IF your basic assumptions are true: the explanation of the world you support, the way how God is supposed to act and inform what He did, and the way how we should interpret the Bible.

For a person having different basic assumptions about the way how the biblical scriptures should be interpreted and understood (exegesis), your listing of verses does not prove that you are correct. Instead, it strengthens the opinion that your way of interpreting the scriptures is one-sided. It may also give the impression that your understanding about the exegesis of biblical scriptures is shallow. The impression may be wrong but it is an understandable conclusion.

When the arguing is done through different basic assumptions, it easily leads to frustration. How can the other person be so dense that he does not understand such obvious proof?
The sad part is that both parties may think the same from the other side.

Communication is a challenging task. It often (usually?) fails.

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I see no benefit in lauding over people. It contradicts the teaching of Christ. Those who would be great should serve. Putting down or claiming superiority is not serving.

Paul was more humble than you are/

There is nothing i Scripture about canonisation. it is a human act.

Which contradicts the tearing of the curtain on Christ’s death.

If Paul chose to ignore Christ’s teaching it was probably because he was not aware of it. We are.

I repeat Matt 24:8
“But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers.

Refute it at your peril.

Richard

This. So are we to believe that the Bible was written expressly to make sense within the naive perspective of those living in the times we do? That is just a little too much for me to take seriously. If it was to have meaning when first put together and through all the times leading up to our own and beyond, some greater facility with interpretation must be required.

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Quote the scriptures then amigo…stop stuffing around with this…quote scriptures and prove it my opinion here is wrong.

Thats the thing,no one addresses my biblical texts with other texts that deny them…never does this happen. Surely even you can see the problem with that habit?

Heres what we shall do,

You quote a list of bible verses that support your view, and we shall look at them and see how many actually support your world view.

Then ill quote mine and we shall see which ones are more consistent with the biblical theme and various bible writers where my opinions/claims are addressed.

Any genuine Christian should have no problem defending their faith from the bible directly. Anyone who cannot do that should seriously question what they have been led to believe…read acts 17.11 (my hope is those who read this post will go and read that verse…unfortunately most wont bother)

How long have you got?

The problem being, Scripture is not a list of quotations and citations. If you “know” scripture you do not just remember a fraction of it by numbers#

You quote short pieces, out of context, and with an authority about what they mean. I have never challenged your interpretations, for reasons you should know by now (see my bio if you do not)

However you are emphatic, like many, about the precise meaning of each minute text.
So before you raise your high horse to Heaven…

Some of us have got beyond the kiddy stage of faith, and progressed to real personal faith that supersedes even Scripture

Richard

Just a curious question: what do you think about the second ‘book’ of God, creation?

How much can we rely on the information we read from the book of creation?
When there are different interpretations about a passage of the biblical scriptures, can we use the information we learn from the book of creation to deduce that those interpretations that are in conflict with the book of creation are likely to be false, assuming that some others are not in conflict?

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What do you think the context (historical and cultural)?
What genre do you think it is?
What language was it written in?
And for each of those, why do you think so?

On what basis do you think they are historical statements?

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I have read it. What do you think that studying the scriptures is?

Someone may parrot what the scriptures tell and yet not understand.
Acts 8:28-35 tells about one case where a man, Ethiopian eunuch, is reading the scriptures and does not understand. He needs Philip to explain before he understood.
Acts 18:24-26 tells about Apollos, a man who was competent in scriptures. He needed others to explain the way of the Lord more accurately.
Acts 15 tells about the assembly of the apostles and the elders of Jerusalem. There were conflicting interpretations about the scriptures and even the apostles and elders needed to consider the matter seriously and argue before they could reach a conclusion. Obviously, interpreting the scriptures and the will of God was not always easy even for the apostles chosen by Jesus.

Studying the scriptures seriously is not just reading and parroting. It is asking questions about the passage, such as in what time and context was this written, how did the original receivers understand it, what was the purpose of the message? Lots of questions and studying to understand the original meaning. After that, there comes the questions of what does this passage mean to us, how should the message be applied today, how should it affect our life?

Searching if and where the same words are used in the different scriptures (cross-reference method) may give a better understanding but it is just one aiding method in the study.

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Huh? What does that have to do with recognizing that some are more spiritually developed than others?

When have I ever said that anyone should imitate me?

Right – you’re superior to the inspired Apostle.

Your use of texts is like someone who turns to a children’s book about addition and subtraction in order to calculate the proper amount of fuel to get a robot to Mars: they don’t prove your point, they only show that you are operating on assumptions not found in the scriptures.

There are no verses that support your view, or an atheist view, or any other view. Moses didn’t set down the genre and context at the start of each part that he wrote.

The question is why you think that ancient literature should be read from a modern worldview.

That’s exactly what I do: I ask what the scriptures actually are, and read them according to that, refusing to run them through a modern worldview but trying to understand them as an ancient Israelite would have.

Do you honestly think that those disciples read the scripture through a modern worldview? Why?

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In other words, it is asking, “What is this that God has given us? Why did He do it that way?” as opposed to deciding ahead of time that He must have forced the writers to conform to a modern scientific worldview.

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:sunglasses:

It’s not about right and wrong, or superiority, at least, it shouldn’t be

No just agree with you because you are right (all the time)

But it is all second hand at best.

Say HIs precise words?

Richard