“So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.”
Is not being a disciple a sin? Since the vast majority of us are not, I hope not.
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Hmmm. I thought Jesus wanted disciples. The great commission says… go and make disciples. Secondly, if you refuse to follow Jesus, then are you truly saved?
Only when man’s orders that go against God’s.
How many people do you know who live like disciples? I have met some good people and believers, but never a disciple, yet. I don’t believe that it is something you can appoint yourself to do, like being a pastor or evangelist.
Obedience is not morality. Dogs obey commands, but that doesn’t make them moral.
If justice has no connection to what humans believe is moral then it isn’t justice by any definition. It just becomes the capricious acts of a deity.
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So when God says kill every man, woman and child not to do so is a capital offense?
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Going back, this has nothing to do with following orders, so strike that.
Justice and morality are defined by God. He is the truest sense of both. We, being limited to time and space and our limited minds are in no position to judge God, who is omnipotent, omnipresent and who created everything, is the only one who can judge.
I know pastors who talk a lot about following Jesus, his teachings etc, but they all have a special interpretation for their own .
MacArthur is one of those pastors who equates salvation and discipleship but is a rich man in private life.
There are many pastors like that. I don’t like how it looks, but it’s not to me to decide their hearts, only to watch my own and keep from supporting any ministry or group that may be misusing donations.
That still makes for capricious justice.
That lands us back at morality being replaced by obedience. We are once again at “I was just following orders”.
Even the Bible states that humans know of good and evil.
Just like God, we know good and evil.
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Yes, a tree is known by its fruit.
When man says drop the bomb on Hiroshima or Nagasaki which would kill every man, woman, and child, is it right or wrong to refuse?
What does that have to do with anything?
Only if God is capricious and God is not. Humans are capricious and are easily swayed. God is different. God is Love.
If this were true then there wouldn’t need to be the caveat that we can’t judge what God does or commands. Instead, God’s justice would align with our own judgements of what is just.
It seems unloving that God would destroy someone for honestly believing in a different deity.
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Right. I doubt any of the crews were coerced. They all could have refused.
To what are you specifically referring? God commands us to love. Do you have a problem with that?
Again what is your basis for this statement. On the other hand bad belief results in bad actions like an attempted coup on Epiphany. Christianity is about being in right relationship to God, others, and ourselves, not judging others which is God’s job. .
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I would agree with you about that … hence the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory, which entails spiritual purification before entering Heaven.
I don’t speculate about the eternal fate of anyone - including myself - but I’d say a lover of God will fare better on Judgement Day than a hater of God.
But having said that, I have this hypothesis (for what it’s worth): When everyone dies they immediately met God face-to-face, and they see that “God is love”. Upon seeing that “God is love”, someone who spent their life of earth hating God may well have a complete change of heart and fall in love with God, which will result in God granting that person eternal life in Heaven. But if anyone still rejects God after meeting him face-to-face, seeing that “God is love”, then that person has lost his last chance of salvation and will be sent to that dark place that is eternal separation from God. In short, an atheist (in this life) can still be saved.
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Not if you believe the one giving the orders is objectively morally perfect.
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How do you know you have enough good fruit to be saved? How do know your good fruits outweigh your sins?
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If you judge yourself already “saved” and have already been granted eternal life in Heaven, you are putting yourself on the Judgement Seat of Christ, are you not?
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There are many atheists who were once self-declared ‘saved’ Christians, but lost their faith - are they still saved? If not, they were wrong to claim that they were already “saved” and were Heaven-bound. How do you know you won’t lose your faith? Can you see into the future? If so, how?
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Do you believe Christ has already judged you and granted you eternal life?
In a limited fashion.
Story: A man goes out to the field, draws his gun and shoots the first horse he approaches.
Is he doing good or evil?
What you didn’t know: The horse had been attacked by a wolf, and is in pain and dying. Now, is he doing good or evil?
Until you know all the circumstances, you can’t determine good or evil, only appearances. God not only knows past and present circumstances, he knows the future. When he told Israel to kill all men women and children in certain towns, he knew the consequences of failure to do so.
Salvation is not much about holding the correct believe as it is about love of God. Someone who sincerely loves what he sincerely believes to be God will not be condemned to destruction. There Christians who will not be saved and there are pagans and Muslims who will be saved.
People often worship what they belief is God for reasons others than love - eg, superstitious fear or to hopefully obtain something they want.