That is a false accusation and pharisaical. Look at the list – it is only one page and all of it scripture.
Shalom.
Ignoring all the Scriptures that say being born again and adoption can be reversed and nullified is neither intelligent nor honest theology. This one from Hebrews 6, for example:
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 [c]if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame."
@Edgar and @Dale, It looks like the replies are getting a little too personal. Please remember what is stated in the forum guidelines:
- Focus on discussing other people’s ideas, not on evaluating their character, faith, communication style, or perceived “tone.” Please avoid attributing beliefs, motivations, or attitudes to others.
Since you are the only two who have replied in the last two days, I am going to go ahead and temporarily close this thread for 24 hours. Hopefully, that will give enough time for tempers to simmer down and blood pressure to fall.
When the thread reopens, you are both welcome to pick up the conversation if you think you have something new or helpful to contribute to the discussion.
Feel free to PM me with any clarifying questions.
Cheers, L
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This topic was automatically opened after 21 hours.
If you maintain that position, you are rather preempting Judgement Day and damning all ‘deconverted Christians’ now – including those that have returned to the faith (I know of at least one). Why doesn’t your interpretation preclude a legitimate faith in the future? We have already discussed this some above:
These are good questions in that ancient and perennial theological tussle set up between works and faith. My two cents of response to the first question of yours quoted above is that a believer becomes justified (apart from works) when he first cries - from the back of the temple as it were, “God, have mercy on me, a sinner.” We’re told that this man, and not the one who had lots of merit badges to his name, went home justified before God.
But … so what about works; which after all do have more than a few scriptural exhortations in their favor too as you point out. I think the man who objects or makes excuses or puts off good works that the Lord has prepared for him and calls him to do - that man shows with his disobedience that his salvation is not completed in him yet. The Lord wants obedience (which always means ‘mercy’ and love of neighbor) as an infinitely better thing than sacrifice. It is a high calling indeed for those who, with the rich, young rule-follower, still sense something lacking, and approach Christ with the question: “what yet more must I do to be saved?” If we really wanted to be perfect, there is always that higher calling the Lord will then give us. But if we only desire ‘salvation’ (i.e. to satisfy some minimal formula to be sure we have it), then we show that our salvation isn’t yet full or complete; but is still an occasion of struggle (or not?) for us. The rich young man may actually be ahead of most of us in this quest, because at least when he walked away from Christ, he did so sorrowfully - knowing in his heart there was still something lacking even after all his rule-following obedience. Many of us Christians today might fancy that we’ve already satisfied the requisite formulas and minimally required obediences - so we then relax well short of that heart-disturbance that the rich young man felt - a push to have Christ himself. Christ honored his desire with the yet-higher calling that he at least showed himself ready to hear - if not yet quite able to follow. But for most of us, we haven’t even reached a point where we are ready to hear such challenge: “leave everything and follow me…”. Our pre-emptive fear of what might be asked of us should we dare such a question causes us to insulate ourselves against Christ by wrapping ourselves deeply in safely proscribed layers of rules and formulas instead. Those we (falsely) fancy that we have some hope of satisfying so that we can then relax and keep yet some parts of our lives for ourselves and our own agendas.
I suggest that to try to turn Christ’s call on us into some new, higher rule, - some higher formula of satisfaction of God by our formulaic observances, may be a bit like trying to put new wine into old wineskins. We have it on good authority that this doesn’t end well. It is to take the ‘easy yoke’ and ‘light burden’ of Christ and to make it even heavier than the old one. It is to take the good news of the gospels and to turn it into very bad news indeed: “Not only must you follow all the old rules - a burden you already proved unable to bear - but now I’m adding new rules on top of it all: you must love your enemies, give away everything, hold to certain correct doctrines about me, … believe 46 impossible things before breakfast …etc.” Be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect - you get the point. As long as these are just new rules to us (to add on top of all the old ones), we still show that our hearts aren’t prepared to receive God in the way he invites us to communion: through knowing and loving Christ the son. As we grow in that communion and begin to haltingly (and sometimes failingly - as the rich young man demonstrates) respond with our imperfect, but quite necessary seeds of love planted in our hearts, we begin to seek what we can do to please the Father. Not because it’s a rule, but because we just want to please our master. That faith, born of love, and demonstrated by our obedient - even if ever incomplete works --all that is the warp and woof of our salvation being wrought by God in Christ. Once we are there, we no longer need the training wheels of the old law. It is indeed the fulfillment of that law - the very purpose those training wheels were meant to serve. We still too often need those, to be sure; but Christ calls us to be “riding our bicycles for real” as mature and growing adults. We have Christ himself. We are free indeed, and how can we fuss, fast, and fixate on old formulas if or when the bridegroom, the master, the author of life himself is present?
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@Edgar, I understand that some Christians believe in a place called Purgatory for people who are saved, but have not earned a place in heaven. Do you know how this works?
Yes.
(And we are certainly not advocating for or promoting the faith not works ‘easy believism’ that is too prevalent in some Christian circles, that all you have to do is raise your hand during an alter call or emotionally ‘pray the prayer’.)
Are you saying we keep the commandments only because we “want to” ? If so, what should a believer do if he is tempted to steal, for example? In other words, if he wants to steal, does that mean he can ignore the commandment, “Thou shalt not steal”?
I would suggest your argument fails, because it is contradicted by Scripture. For starters, nowhere in Galations or 1Corinthinans does Paul mention a lack of faith or indicate that he ever addressing “unbelievers”.
On the contrary, with respect to the Galatians:
Paul tells them, “for in Christ you are all sons of God , through faith . For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ ”, and are therefore “ heirs to promise” (Gal 3:26).
In Gal 3:5, Paul says the Galatians that as result of their “faith”, the “Spirit … works many miracles among you” .
In Gal 1:6, Paul says the Galatians have been “called” into “the grace of Christ”.
With respect to the Corinthians:
Paul describes them as “those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints” (1Cor 1:2).
Where is the evidence that Paul is addressing “unbelievers” in Gal 5:21 and 1Cor 6? I can’t find any.
According to you, “believers” already have their ticket to Heaven, so why do they “need to examine themselves”?
From this comment, I suspect you think justification is a one-time event, after which the justification is permanent and cannot be lost. If so, that is incorrect – once gained, justification can be lost due to serious sin and/or loss of faith.
That is why Paul warns the Galatians (whom he referred to as “sons of God”) that their sins can result in them not inheriting the kingdom of God.
And since justification can be lost, adoption as “sons of God” can also be lost.
That justification (and “sonship”) can be lost is implied in Gal 6:9, where Paul tells the Galatians, “let us not grow weary in well-doing (aka “works”), for in due season we shall reap (eternal life), if we do not lose heart”. The word, “ if ” implies that eternal life is not a certainty; it is conditional on being justified by faith and works.
It is also implied in Matt 7:21-23, where Jesus disowns believers who had previously performed supernatural deeds in his name, but who later become evildoers.
It is also implied in Heb 6:
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 [c]if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
In that case, please explain what this verse means: “He who says ‘I know him’ but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him” (1John 2:3-6)
James 2:24 says, “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone”. By “works”, James means obeying God’s commandments. So how can you be justified if you don’t obey God’s commandments?
I wish you would read and comprehend context. What did actually I say?
I don’t think there is much point in my continuing any further after your bizarre inference, ignoring and twisting what I said.
You don’t seem to understand the difference between Redemption and Salvation. All mankind is redeemed by the Cross - even pagans and atheists have been redeemed by the Cross and babies in the womb.
The Redemption (the Cross) makes salvation possible , but is doesn’t mean all mankind will be saved. That’s because salvation is conditional ( on faith and works) – unlike the redemption provide by the Cross, which is 100% unconditional.
I never said we do. We are justified and thus saved by faith and works (James 2:24).
No, I haven’t neglected it, and it doesn’t contradict anything I’ve said. That passage says we obtain access to God’s grace initially through faith and that we are not saved by works alone. It doesn’t say we are saved by faith alone, nor that works are irrelevant to salvation.
Pass what “test”? Our whole life is the test, not some isolated part of it.
Yet the promise of eternal life is described as a “hope” in more than twenty places in the NT – meaning that those “assurances” are not a certainty. It is a “hope” and not a certainty because justification and “sonship”, once gained, can be lost. Not even Paul considered his salvation a certainty (1Cor 4:3-5).
Matt 7:21-23 says you’re wrong – certain believers thought they were saved because they had prophesied, cast out demons and performed miracles in the name of Jesus – but they fell away into evil and Jesus disowned them.
Do you have infallibly knowledge that you will not fall away into evil in the future? If so, you must have a crystal ball!
What if, after “testing themselves” against “the standard”, they fail the test and don’t meet the standard. What happens then?
According to you, if they’re “already adopted and heirs”, that status can never be reversed or lost and it 100% guarantees eternal life in Heaven. If that is so, why do they need to “test themselves” and why do they need “assurance”?
Maybe I reacted too quickly and unkindly. Not inaccurately, though.
When someone is addressing a group, generalizations are made that obviously do not necessarily apply to every individual without exception…
Also, please reflect on the metaphor of adoption, when that occurs and when we become heirs with Jesus. It is a one time thing, just like being birthed, another scriptural metaphor.
I’m sorry if I misunderstood your comment.
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No, I certainly do not understand that distinction. How is all mankind redeemed by the cross? Please look up the word’s definition. Redemption and salvation have somewhat different meanings with respect to Christians, but I definitely would not use ‘redeemed’ with respect to unbelievers.
That is Paul’s word, not mine, and he is not talking about ‘our whole life’:
Haven’t we already talked about the ‘sure hope’ and assurance we have (or should have)? It is not just wishful thinking. Yes, we have, above. Here, too.
I’m afraid you’re not getting it. Children need to learn and gain confidence, as do professionals. They need to be tested by practice, but when they have ‘passed the test’ of performance, they get confidence and assurance. Likewise Christians. They do not have to live their lives doubting and wondering. And when they have seen their Father at work in his intervening providences, any doubt should subside quickly and assurance correspondingly grow. But we are forgetful creatures, and need to keep reminding ourselves to pay attention to the right things and not be distracted by our own ills and the ills around us (there is no shortage!). Scripture and devotional reading can help a great deal. “Count it all joy…” “Rejoice in the Lord always, and again I say rejoice!” “Fix your eyes on Jesus!”
I’m curious how many have ever wondered if they were adopted. I seem to recall the question flitting through my mind when I was younger (way younger 
). The idea was readily dismissed. It is a bit more important for Christians to be sure that they are not misleading themselves, and for people that only think they are Christians, as well. We know of several places in scripture were it is evident that there are such people, self-deceived, and churchgoers, too. Christians may not be sure of their salvation, but that is independent of the fact of it, and the problem is in their understanding.
I would say that all are ‘saved’ by the cross, that the world has not been incinerated heretofore, in God’s patience through the work of Jesus, wanting to adopt more into his family.
After all that, you still haven’t answered my question: How does a believer go about being “ justified by works ” (James 2:24)? In fact, contrary to providing a satisfactory answer, your entire post seems to be an exercise in denying the importance that “works” play in the process of justification.
James 2:26 says, “faith without works is dead” – what are these “works”, exactly? Surely you know, because according to James, if you aren’t performing these “works”, your faith is “dead”, is it not?
Not a “rule”? According to 1John 2:3-4, if a believer doesn’t “ keep his commandments “, he is a “ liar, and the truth is not in him ”. In other words, it is necessary for a believer to keep God’s commandments in order to be saved - that sounds very much like a “rule” to me!