Spinoff: Law vs. Grace?

Faith & Science Conversation
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Few Jews recognized Jesus as the Messiah, and people do not like to change for no good reason. When Jesus made it clear that He was not going to throw off the Roman yoke there was no good reason. The good news of Christianity is believe in Jesus Christ and follow Him as Jesus told the rich young ruler. This is the new covenant, as opposed old covenant of believing in God and doing good works.

Incidentally God’s commandments in the time of Jesus was the Law, the Torah. Do you keep the Sabbath as God commanded ?

Jesus agreed that the rich man kept the commandments so how could he not know God? We are not called to judge (condemn) him. How many of us are willing to sell all that we have and give the money to the poor so we can follow Jesus?

The clearest example of faith bringing salvation is the words of Jesus to the thief on the cross.

Paul wrote Romans to share with that important body of believers his theology. It is not easy reading, but well the worth the effort to know the relationship between faith and works, grace and law, forgiveness and the Holy Spirit.

You are saying that that God is less than humans. Humans should trust in God that God will not break God’s promise of salvation, but God must make God’s promises conditional, because God cannot trust humans to keep their commitment to live right…

You are saying that salvation and the change that the Holy Spirit makes in our lives is apt to be phony and cannot be trusted. Maybe you do not know if I am saved, but surely God knows my heart and knows the reality of my commitment to Jesus. I cannot fool God. Even if somehow I might sneak into heaven when I am unworthy, what would I gain by living where everyone else is praising God and no one believes my lies.

Romans 6:3-11 (NIV2011)
3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.
6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—
7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.
9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him.
10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Salvation and faith is not a ticket to heaven, it is life with Immanuel, Jesus Christ, God with us now and forever.

Apparently you do not understand that when we are saved, all of our sin is forgiven, and we are justified by faith so we are worthy of eternal life with God.

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Disagree. Jesus was clearly against rich people in the Gospel of Luke (woe to you who are rich) and in Acts we find exactly what we found in Luke 14:33, where Jesus’ followers were literally selling everything and living in a commune.

Now, you don’t like it, and I get it. But your reaction just shows the typical response of “Bible followers” when I point out that they are not really following their Bibles.

You are not alone in this. There are gay Christians who live and marry their same sex partners who have similar interpretation as you. They too don’t take “wooden literal” interpretations to some of the passages in the Bible. But something tells me you would disagree with them.

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Or perhaps you don’t understand that “salvation” has many different meanings in the Bible?

Lets cue in a well known Christian pastor, Mr John Piper.

We are not justified through sanctification. Let me say it again: we are not justified through sanctification. But we are finally saved through sanctification — that is, through a real change in our hearts and minds and lives without which we will not see the Lord.

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The real change in our hearts, minds, and lives is caused by salvation by faith(alone.) By being born again through the Holy Spirit. Sanctification is the result of salvation, it does not result in salvation.

Try it.

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I did try it, and I don’t buy it. This is the same ole works salvation, where you must do good works, but unlike the Catholics, you must frame it in different terms. Like with Catholics, your works are absolutely necessary to enter haven. Unlike Catholics, you must claim that works are not meritorious.

How about I sell you a workout widget. It’s a simple band bracelet. You put it on the arm and it will work out for you. All you need to do, is believe that this band bracelet has power and move accordingly. Run, walk, strength train., etc… . After you are finished working out for the day, don’t forget to attribute your efforts to the band bracelet. All that work was thanks to that bracelet. This, in a nutshell, is the exact model of how the Reformed “faith alone” salvation works.

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I’m interested. How much are they? :wink:

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Actually, it’s not. You are missing a major piece that has been addressed earlier.

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They are given out as a free gift, just like salvation. However, if you REALLY accept it, you won’t be able to stop yourself from paying 9.99/mo for ever and ever. :slight_smile:

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Firstly, that good thief did in fact do “works” - he defended Jesus when the other criminal on the other cross mocked him.

Secondly, that good thief was at the very end of his life, so it’s unreasonable to apply his scenario to believers who have years yet to live.

Thirdly, Jesus knows now if any believer will be saved or not - but that knowledge is not available to any believer now. We will know whether we are saved on not only on Judgement Day.

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Good point.
 

My other points above about assurance, guarantees, confidence, and the irreversibility of being born (again) and more, remain scripturally supported and unrefuted.

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@SuperBigV, thank you for your response and showing that salvation by faith and works is basically the same as the Catholic view.

The question I have for you is when you said you tried it did you really feel a change in your life. If not then you are probably mistaken.

Salvation by faith means you have made a 180 degree change in your life, from a life focused on self even in a “good” way like the rich young ruler to a life focused on Jesus.
The point is that it is not a life focused on earning “brownie” points or doing what the church wants you to do, but what God has for you to do, for God is your best guide. Too often it seems that some leaders of the church use their legalistic authority over others to compel them to do what they want.

The point is that to be saved a person really must really want to live God’s way and not some other way and be willing to radically change his/her priorities and not just want a ticket to heaven. I am glad that you are not satisfied with salvation by works in any form.
Let me know when you are ready for the real thing.

Blessings

@Edgar, so the fact that Jesus has forgiven all your sins and given you the gift of the Holy Spirit so you can live your life with God is a secret hidden from you?!

1 and 2 the words of the thief on the cross are a confession of faith. Faith and works are not to be confused. Faith is not a good work. God is showing us most clearly that faith is the way to salvation.

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You forgot to mention the very first thing Jesus told the rich man - “If you should enter life, keep the commandments ” (Matt 19:17). A sure sign of a false doctrine is the need to cherry-pick the Scriptures in order to prop it up.

To “follow” Jesus requires obeying Jesus:
“He who believes in the Son has eternal life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life , but the wrath of God rests upon him”(John 3:36);

Jesus said, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments ” (John 14:15).

The New Covenant requires faith and obedience (works) - just as in the Old Covenant.

If the New Covenant means we are saved by faith alone, please explain 1John 2:3-6 - “He who says ‘I know him’ but disobeys his commandments is a liar , and the truth is not in him ”.

Yes, I keep the Sabbath according to the apostolic tradition, which is as God commanded.

As an educated Jew he would have been well aware of the Jewish laws and commandments – perhaps he was under the impression that keeping the commandments alone (ie, without faith) would save him.

In that case, you’re looking at faith and works: The saved thief defended Jesus when the criminal on the other cross mocked him – that’s “works”.

Romans 3:31 says the “ law ” is not abandoned by faith in Jesus, and that “On the contrary, we uphold the law ”.
Romans 13:8 say “he who loves his neighbour ( works) has fulfilled the law ”.

So why does Paul tell believers that they must uphold and fulfill “ law ” if they are saved by faith alone? (Here’s a hint: Having “faith” in Jesus also means obeying Jesus.)

I’ve pointed out in previous posts the many Scriptures which clearly imply God’s promise of salvation is conditional,, but you choose to ignore them. If God’s promise is not conditional, why does Romans 8:16-17 say we will be glorified like Christ, “ provided we suffer ” with Christ?

Faith is not a magic pill that turns the believer into a robot that does good works only and cannot sin. God never takes away our free will and as long as we have free will, the potential to use it to sin still exists.

I don’t know if I will be saved, so I certainly don’t know if you will be saved. God knows now if I will be saved or not, but I won’t know my eternal fate until Judgement Day – so until that day, I will work out my own salvation, with fear and trembling (Phil 2:12), but also with hope (Romans 8:24).

Christ alone will decide if you are worthy of eternal life – you are not qualified to make that judgement yourself.

In Rev 2 and 3, Jesus repeatedly judges believers according to their faith AND their good and bad “works” (he mentions “works” ten times, in fact). In 3:4, Jesus declares certain believers “worthy” of eternal life because they “have not soiled their garments” with imperfect (bad) works. If your “faith alone” doctrine is correct and all our sins are forgiven, please explain why Jesus judges believers according to their “works”.

The NT clearly says we are not justified by faith alone - “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone ” (James 2:24).

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Romans 8:23 says “we wait for adoption as sons” – ie, our adoption is a future event. Please explain.

Please explain what you think the following words mean: “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” (Phil 2:12).
(Here’s a hint: God condemned Adam and Eve to death, not because of their lack of faith, but because of their disobedience – ie, their works.)

Jesus was not “against rich people” – he was against people “who trust in riches” (Mark 10:24) and not in God. In the OT, God blessed Abraham with great wealth.

… but I can’t anywhere that says they lived in a commune of poverty.

Same-sex married and “Christian”? I don’t think so.

Not only Catholics, but Jesus too: In Rev 3:4, Jesus judges believers “worthy” of salvation according to their *works.

And James too: “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” (James 2:24).

And Paul too: he warns believers that their sins ( works) can result in them not inheriting the kingdom of Heaven (Gal 5, 1Cor 6).

And John too: “He who says ‘I know him’ but disobeys his commandments (ie, works) is a liar , and the truth is not in him ” (1John 2:3-6)
… and “He who believes in the Son has eternal life, but he who does not obey the Son (ie, works) shall not see life , but the wrath of God rests upon him” (John 3:36).

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Scripture says you’re wrong. For example, James 2:14 says, “What does it profit … if a man says he has faith but not works?” – how much clearer can you get? James is talking about faith without works, is he not?

James 2:26 says “faith without works is dead”, which clearly implies one can faith without works. James 2:24 – “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” – also implies one can have faith and not works;

In 1Cor 13:2, Paul says, “and though I have all faith, bso that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.” Not having “love” means not loving one’s neighbours, which is works. So Paul is clearly implying that one can have faith without works;

The definition of “works” is keeping the commandment of God, so sin is the absence of works. John 3:36 says, “He who believes in the Son has eternal life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him";

Paul warns believers (ie, those with faith) that their sins (ie, the absence of works) can lead to them not inheriting the kingdom of Heaven (Gal 5, 1Cor 6);

John 3:36 says, “He who believes in the Son has eternal life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him” – ie, someone who has faith but disobeys the commandments of God – ie, faith without works;

1John 2:3-6 says, “He who says ‘I know him’ but disobeys his commandments is a liar , and the truth is not in him ” – once again, a case of faith without works;

In Matt 7:21-23, Jesus condemns believers who practiced evil – ie, faith without works.

It’s really all about this: Jesus said, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments … He who has my commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves me” (John 14:15, 21).

God tests and measures our love for him by our willingness to keep his commandments, which boils down to doing his will rather than doing our own will and following our own desires. That’s why works are essential for salvation (James 2:24, John 3:36) and why we will be judged by our deeds – God will save those who love him and who demonstratre their love by obeying him.

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Agreed. And they will be confirming that they were irrevocably adopted and irreversibly born again from the start.

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…and which can be known in the here and now.

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@Edgar, You are repeating yourself. If I was not convinced the first few times, repetition does not make it any more convincing.

Paul wrote that we are justified by faith. By this he meant we are made right with God, through faith and not by works. If you do not agree than you would have to throw out all of the letters that Paul wrote.

It is on the basis of justification by faith that people are baptized to Christianity or join the Church after infant baptism. If you throw out justification by faith, then you must throw baptism and church membership ,and say that you are only a Christian if your Works Sheet is up to date.

Even works is dependent on justification, because it is a process that begins with justification by faith when we receive the Holy Spirit. Sanctification does not save us, but marks our growth in the Spirit so that we bear good Fruit of Spirit, not the Works of the Flesh, as we see too often in the church in the world today.

We cannot separate our theology from what is going on in the world today. The Church and the world is in a terrible mess. History and theology tell us that “faith and works” teaching is legalism that kills the Church as we see happening today.

Faith without works or without fruit of the Spirit is dead and cannot save because it is not Faith. Still it is faith that justifies and brings grace that saves, not works… This is the Good News of Jesus Christ.

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All the sins that believers will ever commit are forgiven? If so, believers are free to give in to any temptation that their fallen, sinful natures experience. So if a believer can commit any sin - no matter how grave or how many times it’s committed - and God will reward such ungodly behaviour with eternal life in Heaven – all a believer has to do is believe Jesus died for his sins. Wow, what a sweet deal! Imagine that … a believer can become the next Ted Bundy or the next Pablo Escobar and he will still be saved!

Wait … if we are saved through faith and sin, how come 1Peter 1:15 says, “be holy yourselves in all your conduct”?

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Ephesians 1:22-23 says the Church is the “body” and “fullness of Christ”, therefore the Church perfectly reflects the mind and will of Christ in her dogmas, which are infallible. So to follow and obey the Church is to follow and obey Christ, since Christ and his body cannot be separated nor corrupted.
As for me, the “Church” that I follow and obey is the Catholic Church. Which “Church” do you follow and obey?

That’s true,of course, but Ephesians 4 says a Christian is guided by God through his Church:

” 11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers , 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the [e]edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.”

I’m confused. In previous posts you’ve claimed that a person is saved by “faith alone”, but here you’re saying, “to be saved a person … must live God’s way.”

Please explain:
(a) what it means for a believer “to live God’s way”;
(b) if a person “must live God’s way” to be saved, how is that different to salvation by faith and works?

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You left out two important words.