Spinoff: Law vs. Grace?

Faith & Science Conversation
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Why “expected”? The account (Luke 19:1-10) simply says Zacchaeus would give back four-fold to anyone he had defrauded – nothing there at all about him being rendered penniless as a result.

Did the rich man “walk away from salvation”? In the Mark account, Jesus said it was hard for those “who trust in riches” to get to Heaven (Mark 10:24) – which is not the same as saying it is hard for those who are rich to get to Heaven. The bottom line is, someone can be rich and also love God and keep his commandments.

In the Matthew account, Jesus tells the rich man “If you would be perfect ”, you should give all your money to the poor (Matt 19:21). Jesus did not say, “If you would be saved …” - rather, Jesus is telling him what would be ideal for that particular person, not what is necessary . Jesus is not saying all rich people must give away their money to the poor in order to be saved.

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That’s incorrect. The most important requirement of the Law of Moses had always been loving God . When a Pharisee asked Jesus what the greatest commandment was, Jesus replied, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind” (Matt 22:36-37), which comes from Deut 6:5.

“If you love the Lord your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his ordinances, then you shall live and multiply” (Deut 30:16). In other words, you demonstrate your love of God by keeping his commandments.

Loving your neighbour is nothing new either. In fact, Jesus said the second-greatest commandment is “to love your neighbour as yourself (Matt 22:39), which comes from Lev 19:18.

It would be an insult to God to suggest he is so trivial as to impose “rules for rules sake”. In Deut 10:13, God says his laws are “for your good”.

Isaiah 48:18 says, “Oh, that you had heeded My commandments! Then your peace would have been like a river, And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.”

The higher law of love was there from the beginning - Jesus said “all the law (of Moses) and the prophets” are based on loving God and loving your neighbour (Matt 22:40).

… or it could be that those “law-enthusiasts” are simply doing what Scripture says believers must do in order to be saved.
For example,
Paul says “Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we uphold the law.” (Romans 3:31);

Jesus said, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments ” (John 14:15);;

Rev 12:17 and 14:12 describes the people of God as those who keep God’s commandments and have faith in Jesus;

1John 2:3-6 says “He who says ‘I know him’ but disobeys his commandments is a liar , and the truth is not in him ”;

in Gal 5 and 1Cor 6, Paul warns believers that their sins (ie, disobeying God’s commandments) can result in them *not inheriting the kingdom of God.

in Rev 2 and 3, Jesus judges believers according to their “ works”.

But the New Covenant is “transactional” – the very meaning of the word “covenant” is transactional - it is a mutual agreement, contract or guarantee, predicated on meeting certain agreed conditions.

James 2:24 says, “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” (“works” = keeping the commandments of God). In other words, God’s promise of eternal life is conditional on faith and works – if the conditions are not met, the promise is rendered null and void

This is nothing new – the old covenant was conditional too:
Deut 11:22-25 says, “For if you will be careful to do all this all this commandment with I command you to do, loving the Lord your God, walking in his ways, and clinging to him … No man will be able stand against you”.

Jesus said, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments” (John 14:15). We demonstrate our love for God by keeping his laws, so faith, love and obedience are inseparable. In Rev 12:17 and 14:12, the God’s people are described as those who have faith in Jesus and keep God’s commandments.

Obedience (keeping God’s commandments is necessary in order to be justified: “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” (James 2:24).

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312

You truncated the verse:

You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

That means there had better be outward evidence of the inward truth. If it were by faith alone with no or contrary outward evidence, then the individual’s justification is at least highly suspect. And we can and should test ourselves. Also notice the conjunction. “…and not by faith alone.” That means a person is not justified by works alone either. There had better be both.
 

I think we agree. But we are not to be focused on the rules. You are not driving well of you only look at the speedometer. :slightly_smiling_face: As @Mervin_Bitikofer said, it is not transactional.

Jesus’ transaction on the cross covers us.
 

O the deep, deep love of Jesus!
Vast, unmeasured, boundless, free,
rolling as a mighty ocean
in its fullness over me.
Underneath me, all around me,
is the current of thy love;
leading onward, leading homeward,
to thy glorious rest above.

313

But the transaction is a gift, and the only ‘requirement’ on our part is to accept his unconditional love and grace. The transaction was complete on the cross, and our “performance” does not buy us anything. It is, again, only the outward indicator of the inward truth of our acceptance of the gift of adoption. We cannot earn it.

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I agree with you that what Jesus taught was not entirely original - and that the motivation of Love had indeed been there from the beginning (as in fact Christ has always been there from the beginning.) That’s why I used the word ‘ostensibly’ when I spoke of the motivation [of just ‘rule-following’] adopted by so many before Christ and even now yet today. I think you’re right - that it is an insult to God to see his rules as just ‘rules for rules sake’.

I’ll always continue to at least gently push back on this. As long as our concern is for ourselves being ‘saved’ as individuals, and taking reassurance in some formula toward that end, I suggest that God’s love hasn’t fully taken root in us yet. We are still stuck with Love’s “training wheels”: minding our 'p’s and 'q’s in the inferior transactional ‘law-oriented’ way. [and who among us could properly claim to have fully ‘arrived’ in such regard? I certainly don’t claim that for myself yet - God’s work in me and on me is not done yet.] I have no need to convince you otherwise. Whatever either of us still lacks in understanding about the law, God will make clear to us in the season we need it. Blessings to you.

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315

Confusing. We don’t have to obey God’s laws, but we have to love?

We don’t “have to” keep God’s laws? Are you sure?

in Gal 5 and 1Cor 6, Paul warns believers that their sins (ie, not keeping God’s laws) can result in them not inheriting the kingdom of God;

1John 2:3-6 says, “He who says ‘I know him’ but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him”;

If you don’t keep God’s laws you cannot be justified: ”a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” … “faith without works is dead” (James 2:24, 26);

the book of Revelation describes God’s people as those who keep the commandments of God and have faith in Jesus (Rev 12:17, 14:12). Sounds like obeying God’s laws is pretty important.

316

…therefore we obey the laws of love. We want to and will (not perfectly yet, as I exemplify too well) because our hearts have been changed, and because we love and want to love, and not because we ‘have to’ obey a list of rules.

The ‘rules’ show us what love looks like and what to test ourselves against, where we fall short. A summary (that @Mervin_Bitikofer ‘liked’, maybe out of weariness as much as in agreement ; – ) was my post #294, not too far above.
 

None of what I just said contradicts any of that, although where you say “Paul warns believers” I would suggest that the warnings are really for the unbelievers among them (but the believers needed to examine themselves).

Paul’s severe warnings (Jesus gives some, as well!) are for those who think they are Christians. There were hypocrites and ‘mere professors’ even in the early church. Paul’s warnings say, in effect, if your behaviors are still evil then they reflect your evil heart and your ‘faith’ is dead, and you cannot be justified (as an adjective) – you are not, you cannot be a justified person, and cannot be justified (as a transitive verb) in that condition.

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Did you have to obey your father’s rules to be his son? No, but ideally you wanted to and did because you loved.

Likewise, I don’t have to obey my Father’s rules to become his adopted son. I already am adopted (it cannot be revoked) and want to and do obey his laws of love – the moral law, OT and New. If my behaviors (and desires) are evil, however, then I have good reason to question the legitimacy of my adoption. Hence Paul’s warnings.

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No worries - I did agree with pretty much everything you said there I think. Generally, I wouldn’t ‘like’ something if I still was seriously at odds with much of it - though your caution against too much presumption in that regard is appreciated. There are many other motivations too (apart from complete agreement) that might caused me (or anybody) to ‘like’ something.

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319

In order to be saved, one must first be justified in the sight of God. James 2:24 says “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.” How does a believer become “justified by works”, exactly?

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What? According to James 2:24 (and other Scriptures), our justification - and hence, our eternal fate - depends on keeping God’s commandments (James 2:24) … but you say “we are not to be focused” on keeping them?!
Contrary to your terrible advice, therefore, we should be very “focused on the rules” – as Paul says in Philippians 2:12, “work out your salvation with fear and trembling” – because the eternal fate of every believer depends on his response to keeping God’s commandments.

Likewise, in Gal 5 and 1Cor 6, Paul warns believers that not keeping God’s commandments (“the rules”) can result in them not inheriting the kingdom of God. [quote]You are not driving well of you only look at the speedometer. [/quote]There are many road rules a driver must keep – if you are not “focused” on keeping them, you are risking disaster. The road to eternal life is the same – if you are not “focused” on keeping God’s rules, you are risking disaster.

And then Dale added:

Jesus’ transaction on the cross covers us.

[Moderator note: I parsed out the attribution above to get the thoughts expressed correctly attributed. -Merv]

The Cross alone does not “cover” anyone. We are “covered” by the Cross only if we become justified in the sight of God and remain justified. James 2;24 says we are justified by works and faith - so if a believer doesn’t strive for “works” - ie, follow “the rules” - he runs the risk of not being justified, and hence not being saved.

If a believer willfully commits serious sin, he risks losing his justification by works - this is what Paul warns believers about in Gal 5 and 1Cor 6.

321

Did you have to carry a list of rules around with you when you were a child, fearing that disobedience would cost you your sonship and that your father would disown you? It sounds like you have a similar fear now with respect to your Heavenly Father.

The most frequent mandate in the Bible is “Don’t be afraid” or one of its several variations – “Be anxious for nothing”, “Fret not”, …

322

 
Is this what you were referring to in Galatians 5?:

I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

That does not say anything about losing it. That speaks about never getting it.
 

ETA: Likewise 1 Corinthians 6:

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

That is not a warning about losing it. It is about never getting it. Again, the warnings are for people who live that way, including those in the church who may think they are believers, but indeed are not. And yet again, one more time, they are also standards for believers who are already adopted and heirs to test themselves against, for assurance.

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Scripture says you can lose your “sonship” by disobeying God’s commandments. This is what happened to the believers in Matt 7:21-23, who were disowned by Jesus due to their “lawlessness”.

You bet - only fool has no fear of God, his justice and his judgement. Besides that, I love God and don’t want to offend him by being disobedient.

A believer is justified by works, so my eternal fate depends on striving to keep God’s commandments - this is why Paul says we must "work out our salvation with fear and trembling and why he warns believers that there sins (disobeying God’s commandments) can result in ending up in Hell.
I don’t want to end up in Hell, so I take Paul’s advice very seriously.

James say believers are justified by works - how does one do that, exactly? Can you tell me?

324

A believer is justified by faith and obeying God’s commandments, so if a believer falls downs in either of these two areas, he has everything to fear, because his eternal fate depends on them.

325

Not inheriting “the kingdom of God” means not making it to Heaven and ending up in Hell. Come on, it ain’t rocket science!

326

My eternal fate has been taken care of by grace, irrevocably, on the cross, by Jesus. There is nothing I can do to lose it. If my behaviors (including behaviors of the mind like lust, jealousy and covetousness) were of such that consistently dishonored him, I should indeed doubt my status. There is such a thing as security for Christians.

This was posted over a month ago, above #144:
    The Christian’s Confidence & Eternal Security, a list
 

We do not earn our salvation by works. It seems you neglect this:

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

I am God’s adopted child. Who is strong enough to erase his signature on the document? (It has been called the Book of Life, I believe. Do you remember when it was written?)

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Um, yes? Have I said anything that contradicted that? No, but, as noted, I am already an heir, irrevocably, and I suspect you are too, but you just do not know it. If, later in your life, God forbid, you do abandon Jesus, then you never were an heir and you haven’t lost anything because you never had it.

328

God’s offer of eternal life is a free gift, but not everyone accepts the gift. To accept the gift, one must be justified by works (James 2:24), and then remain justified.

Really? In that case, why does James say “ works ” are necessary for salvation (James 2:24-26)?

Why does 1John 2:3-6 say any believer who “ disobeys his commandments ” is a “ liar , and the truth is not in him ”?

Why does Paul say without “ holiness ” – ie, keeping God’s commandments – “ no one will see the Lord ”?

Why are the “saints” those keep God’s commandments and have faith in Jesus (Rev 14:12)?

Why does Paul warns believers that not keeping God’s commandments can result in them not inheriting that kingdom of God (Gal 5, 1Cor 6)?

No, it wasn’t. Scripture says Jesus died for all mankind, so if the transaction was completed by the Cross, not only would all mankind be saved, there would be no need to have faith in Jesus. The only thing the Cross completed was the redemption of all mankind (past, present, future), but the Cross alone doesn’t save anyone. Redemption and salvation are two different things.

What the Cross did was to make eternal salvation possible. The redemption of all mankind was unconditional - unlike salvation, which is conditional. So all mankind – past, present and future – is redeemed by the Cross, but not all mankind will be saved.

If a believer’s “performance” is worthless, why does Paul tell believers in Romans 6 that “the wages of sin (ie, disobeying God’s commandments) is eternal “ death”, and that righteous (ie, obeying God’s commandments) leads to eternal life?

If a believer’s “performance” is worthless, why does Jesus say the “ works ” (“performance”) of certain believers makes me “worthy” of eternal life in Revelation 3:4?

If a believer’s “performance” is worthless, why does James 2 say Abraham “was justified by works ”, that a believer is “justified by works ” and that “faith without works is dead”?

If our “performance” is worthless, why does Paul warn believers in Gal 5 and 1Cor 6 that their sins – their “performance” - can result in them not inheriting the kingdom of God?

Scripture repeatedly teaches that our “works” – our “performance” – have a great bearing on our salvation, but here you are saying our “performance” is irrelevant and worthless! Cleary, there is something seriously wrong with your doctrine.

The bottom line is, Scripture clearly teaches that “works” (or “performance”) are essential in order for believers to be justified and judged “worthy” of salvation (Rev 3:4).

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Not so. I have already mentioned the conjunction,

 
The Greek (not that i am pretending to be a scholar) can be read to show to be righteous. That is different than declared.

The verse: James 2:24 Interlinear: Ye see, then, that out of works is man declared righteous, and not out of faith only;
The verb: James 2:24 Interlinear: Ye see, then, that out of works is man declared righteous, and not out of faith only;

A better translation might be the NLT or the NIV:

So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone.

It is talking about externals (and internals to test, to show ourselves that we pass the test), not being made or declared righteous. If we are not ‘measuring up’ externally or introspectively (remembering that Jesus raised the bar with respect to adultery, for instance), then we have reason to doubt.

But, good grief, look at all the assurances in the linked list if we do past the test. I don’t need to worry about future transgressions (and that is not a license to sin, either, because I would be lying, cheating on the test).