I reject your transformation of a confidence in God into a confidence in yourself by turning God into a magic man… again it is the same thing with universalism. There is no magic to get around the basic realities of a relationship – not back when things when sour with A&E to Noah and not now.
Yep they do so all the time. It is part of the parable of the prodigal son and the story of Jacob and Esau – it can be traded away if it is not valued.
None of which say that they cannot walk away by their own choice.
I reject confidence in myself, too. (When did I ever say my confidence was in myself?) You have heard of grace? Lost sheep that cannot rescue themselves? The adoptee is not allowed to recognize that as a helpless orphan on the street they have been rescued and have confidence that they have indeed been adopted, the defenseless lost lamb not know that it has been found?
Not when you claim that salvation, adoption, and being heir is something YOU have and own.
Yep! The lost sheep is rescued from slavery to freedom – back to the state of Adam where they might fall just as he did. The adoptee can only have confidence in the one adopting, not in himself. The rescue from the street only gives him access to the house. It does not lock him inside. Just because the lamb knows he has been found doesn’t mean he cannot get lost again.
I think that “no one” almost always means excepting oneself, and if it does include oneself then we say so explicitly “no one, not even yourself.”
I think it doesn’t say, they cannot leave Him.
Was Paul mistaken in Hebrews 10:26-29 and Galatians 5:1-4? Was Peter mistaken in 2 Peter 2:20-22? Was Jesus mistaken in Matthew 10:24, 24:13, Luke 12:35-48, John 15.1,2,6,8, when he warns his followers they will only be saved IF they stand firm, warns that followers who act in a faithless way will go to be with the unbelievers, and warns that branches bearing no fruit can be cut off?
But that is just thing. I read the Bible myself without anyone telling me what it means. THAT is where the preconceived notions come from. Too many only read the Bible AFTER they have be told to understand it in a preconceived way.
(That’s not a particularly useful text for universalists, is it.)
The rest are comparable. If we do not persevere, then we were never truly adopted, being self-deceived and deceiving others, not passing the tests stipulated we should have given ourselves.
I don’t think we need to say any more about preconceptions.
Nonsense. Nowhere in the Bible (or anywhere!) do we find the term, “a sure hope” – it doesn’t even make sense - it’s an oxymoron! The very meaning of the word “hope” conveys uncertainty , there is nothing “sure” about it.
Here’s something I’ve learnt over the years: When someone resorts to inventing nonsensical terms (eg, “a sure hope”) and twisting the meaning of plain and simple words of Scripture (eg, “hope”) to accommodate his doctrine, I know for sure that his doctrine is unscriptural and false .
The NT repeatedly (more than 20 times) describes eternal life as a “hope” for a reason, and that reason is that we don’t receive the certainty of eternal life until after we die and are judged by Christ. Until then we can have confidence in our hope, but it is still hope, never a certainty.
Oh, so you think these verses mean every believer will get to Heaven? If that is so, how do you reconcile it with Luke 8:13, where Jesus says some will “believe for a while”, but then later fall away into unbelief?
How do you explain Matt 7:21-23, where Jesus disowns certain believers who became “evildoers”? And how do you reconcile it with the fact that many Christians lose their faith and become atheists?
You fail to understand that the promise of salvation is conditional. When one becomes a believer, one receives a conditional promise of eternal life - one is not immediately granted an irrevocable ticket to Heaven - the ticket you receive on coming to faith is provisional and can be revoked. You are granted eternal life only after you die and are judged worthy by Christ.
Hebrews clearly states that believers can fall away and have their ticket to Heaven revoked and torn up:
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
It is indeed using the word differently than the way the world customarily does. Assured Christians can hope for death, can they not? That is certainly a sure hope.
There is only one ultimate comfort, and that is being with the Lord. Some of the readers of that early epistle may have been martyred. What is the comfort Paul was referring to?
Hmmm… I was sure that wasn’t true… and then I couldn’t find it when I looked for it, not in any of the translations I found. Perhaps some people have written this into some obscure versions and they certainly claim that passages like Hebrews 6:19 and Titus 1:2 say a certain hope.
Not the way Dale is interpreting it – I agree. I might use the words “a certain hope” but that just means we are certain there is hope not that is a certainty rather than a hope. And that is why Hebrews 6:19 and Titus 1:2 should not be understood in such a way.
And when it changes from hope to certainty then faith upon which it is found changes to entitlement. It is what the man in Matthew 19 wants and what Jesus refuses to give to him. Thinking you have guarantees is the opposite of faith.
By seeing only what you want to see and hearing only what you want to hear.
I don’t think that is what it says, especially in light of and in conjunction with the other evidence already presented (and I’m not pretending to have been exhaustive – there is probably more). The author of Hebrews is presenting an impossible hypothetical – it’s an impossibility if someone does fall away that was truly in God’s family. He is not saying that could actually happen.
So there is still hope for ‘deconverted Christians’, [otherwise not, according to you.] [ETA]
Nonsense, for all the reasons already covered. You have not refuted any. Christians can indeed have confidence. In their powerful Father and their strong elder Brother.
I am confused. First of all, there is no question that God does command us to love others as we love ourselves. Second, I do not know of anyone who wants to come down with the Virus, or to spread it. I assume that this is the reason why at times a mask is required and you comply with this requirement.
But why do you make for yourself this rule.
Don’t other people have a say in how you act if it may put their health in danger.
Paul tells us that eating meat sacrificed to idols is not wrong, but Christians must be careful not to offend the consciences of weaker brother and sisters.
This seems to be judgmental. Jesus told us not to judge. esp. if we do not want others to tell us what to do.
That’s funny. My wife is glad to wear a mask when she goes out, because they help her severe sinus allergies. She is definitely ‘safer’ and less congested when she does. I wear one when I’m mowing.
And then there are all those in the Orient that routinely wear them because they are so unsafe.
The author of the Letter to the Hebrews was writing to Jewish Christians who were getting persecuted from all sides, from the Jews because they converted, from pagans because they were Christian, and possibly from other Christians because of anti-Semitism. They were considering converting back to Judaism because the government was not persecuting Jews and they might be reconciled with their families…
The answer the author of Hebrews gave them was not that they could not reconvert to Judaism, but they would lose too much if they did so. God does give us the ability to choose. If we decide we really do not want eternal life with God, we can say no thank you.
God’s gifts are unconditional, but we must accept them… God does not need us. We need God. He does not force to do anything, esp.to love God.
You know that is judging me for my statement, don’t you? Don’t worry, because judging is not forbidden. Only hypocritical judgment. 1 Corinthians 6:1-7, John 7:1-5
Example #367 of forcing an completely unnatural and woodenly literalistic interpretation onto obvious hyperbole in a text in order to establish a difficulty that otherwise simply isn’t there…?
John 7:1-5 (NIV2011)
1 After this, Jesus went around in Galilee. He did not want to go about in Judea because the Jewish leaders there were looking for a way to kill him.
2 But when the Jewish Festival of Tabernacles was near,
3 Jesus’ brothers said to him, “Leave Galilee and go to Judea, so that your disciples there may see the works you do.
4 No one who wants to become a public figure acts in secret. Since you are doing these things, show yourself to the world.”
5 For even his own brothers did not believe in him.
1 Corinthians 6:1-6 (NIV2011)
1 If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lord’s people?
2 Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases?
3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!
4 Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, do you ask for a ruling from those whose way of life is scorned in the church?
5 I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers?
6 But instead, one brother takes another to court—and this in front of unbelievers!
The problem is not judging issues in a dispute. The problem is judging the salvation of Christians because they do not agree with a political position like Right to Life.
Here you go again, putting a false spin on words of Scripture in order to accommodate your erroneous OSAS doctrine. Nowhere in the Bible the word “believe/belief” split into “intellectual assent and accepting certain ideas” – that is purely a false, unbiblical, man-made invention.
