Reminds me of this Muslim man from earlier in the pandemic:
Some of his quotes:
It is not a step I have taken lightly, my beard is not just part of my identity but of my religion. Iâve had a beard for well over a decade and I canât remember the last time I shaved.
âI have consulted many Islamic scholars and teachers, locally and nationally, sought advice from fellow Muslim healthcare professionals and the British Islamic medical Association.
Iâve shaved off my beard to protect my patients, my colleagues and family. One of the greatest acts is to save someoneâs life. This simple act may help to do that."
When Jesus judges believers in Rev 2 and 3 according to their WORKS, is that legalism?
When James 2:24 says âa man is justified by WORKS and not by faith aloneâ, is that legalism?
When Paul warns believers in Gal 5 and 1Cor 6 that their SINS can result in them not inheriting the kingdom of God, is that legalism?
When Rev 14 describes the âsaintsâ as âthose who KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS of God and the faith of Jesusâ, is that legalism?
When Christ condemns the âgoatsâ to eternal punishment for NOT PERFORMING GOOD WORKS in Matt 25, is that legalism?
When John 3:36 says DISOBEDIENCE leads to eternal death, is that legalism?
When 1John 3:24 says, âAll who KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS abide in him, and he in themâ, is that legalism?
If sin is so irrelevant, why does Jesus tell us to cut off our hand and pluck out our eye if they cause us to sin (Matt 5)?
If sin is so irrelevant, why does Paul warn believers in Gal 5 and 1Cor 6 that their sins can lead them to hell?
If sin is so irrelevant, why does 1John 2:4 say, âHe who says âI know himâ, but disobeys his commandments (ie, sins) is a liar and the truth is not in himâ?
If sin is so irrelevant, why does 1Peter 1:15-17 warn believers to âbe holy yourselves in all your conductâ because God will judge every believer âaccording to his deedsâ?
If everyone who has ever lived will be saved and admitted to Heaven, why does Jesus say certain âevildoersâ will not âenter the kingdom of Heavenâ (Matt 7:21-23)?
And why does Jesus say âEnter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through itâ (Matt 7:13)?
Deeds are the proof of the pudding. You cannot have a right heart (the real bottom line) and still live willfully like you do not. Deeds must accompany a changed heart, or else the latter is highly suspect, from our point of view. And anyone who thinks they have a right heart and yet continues to engage in evil deeds or absence of good deeds is fooling themselves. But ârighteous livingâ and good deeds are also not proof of a right heart in themselves.
You didnât answer my question: âAt what point did Jesus give you your ticket to Heaven? The moment you came to Christ? One week later? A year later? When?â
You claim to know how you were âsavedâ and that you are certain of gaining eternal life, but you canât tell me when Jesus gave you your ticket to Heaven. I find that rather odd.
Include me. My adoption is irrevocable, but I am clueless when it was âofficialâ. Somewhere in my youth*, but I became more aware of it and sure of it during my senior year in high school and following.
(My parents were of a kind of revivalist theology, baptistic âŚbut my mom said âdeep water Presbyterianâ one time , and I raised my hand at more than one alter call when I was little. )
Which Bible are you reading? The rich young man asks Jesus what good thing he must do to get to Heaven and the very first thing Jesus says to him is, âIf you would enter life, keep the commandmentsâ (Matt 19:17) ⌠quite clearly, Jesus is preaching that good behaviour (ie, keeping the commandments) is a necessary condition for eternal salvation.
What Jesus is preaching is salvation through faith and works â Jesus tells the rich young man to keep the commandments (works) and to overcome his love of money (works) and then tells him to âfollow meâ (faith).
As for, âand effective only at the end of lifeâ âŚ
Really? If you are already âsavedâ, why does Jesus say, âhe who endures TO THE END will be savedâ (Matt 24:13)?
Why does Paul say he will receive eternal life only after he has âfinished the raceâ at the end of his life (2Tim 4:7)?
Hebrews 10:6 says, âlet us run with perseverance the race that is set before usâ. What is the âraceâ that we must persevere with?
If you are already saved, how do you make sense of this verse?:âFor you have need of endurance, that you may do the will of God and receive what is promisedâ (Heb 10:36).
If a believer falls away and becomes an unrepentant serial killer, for example, is he still âsavedâ? If a believer falls away and becomes an unrepentant atheist, he is still saved?
Sort of, but not quite. Salvation is the forgiveness of sins, and is the first step on the road to eternal life. When a believer receives faith and is baptized, his past sins are forgiven, but this doesnât mean he also receives an irrevocable ticket to Heaven â rather, he receives a promise of Heaven, and the promise is conditional.
Furthermore, the promise of eternal life through the forgiveness of sins can be lost, as is obvious from Scripture. For example, Paul warns believers in Gal 5 and 1Cor 6 that their sins can result in them not inheriting the kingdom of God; Jesus denies eternal life to certain believers who became âevildoersâ in Matt 7:21-21.
If a baptized believer loses his faith and becomes an atheist, for example, will he still be granted eternal life?
Eternal life is granted only after we die and are judged âworthyâ (Rev 3:4) by Christ; it is the reward a believer receives as a result of abiding in Christ unto death, which entails not only faith, but striving for holiness (Heb 12:14), which is striving to keep the commandments (âHe who says âI know himâ but disobeys his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in himâ â 1John 2:3-6).
To claim that you already have your ticket to Heaven is not only unscriptural and blasphemous, itâs also irrational and devoid of common sense.
What does âbelieve on Jesus Christâ mean, according to you?
I agree. But receiving the gifts faith and the Holy Spirit is only the first step â it doesnât mean you are instantly given an irrevocable ticket to Heaven.
In fact, the gift of the Holy Spirit can be withdrawn and lost â it is conditional and abiding in Christ and living a holy life, as explained above.
What do you think âfaith without works is deadâ means?
And while youâre at it, what do you think James 2:24 means? - âa man is justified by works and not by faith alone.â What are these âworksâ that are necessary to be justified in the eyes of God?
I agree, but a believer cannot judge himself âworthyâ (Rev 3:4) of eternal life and declare that he already has his ticket to Heaven. As Paul says,
"I do not even judge myself. 4 For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the [b]counsels of the hearts. Then each oneâs praise will come from God. (1Cor 4).
So to judge yourself already eternally âsavedâ is not only delusional, it is a form of blasphemy, because it amounts to putting yourself on the Judgement Seat that belongs only to Christ.
So Jesus has already judged you and sent you a certificate that declares you saved for eternity? Or maybe he sent you a ticket to Heaven? If not, what makes you think you are certain to go to Heaven?
Any deluded fool can say âIâm saved!â ⌠like Danny, the born-again Christian who went around the town twenty years ago telling everyone heâs âsavedâ - he even got himself a couple of Jesus tattoos ⌠alas, today Danny is an atheist. He is still saved, so you think?
David Koresh believed he was saved - was he?
Do you have any idea how many atheists were formerly believing Christians? Go on any atheist online forum and you find hordes of them. Thereâs even pastors who lost their faith and became atheists.
Really? Jesus said some will âbelieve for a whileâ and then lose their faith (Luke 8:13) - in other words, they became believing Christians and later they lost their faith, making themselves âformer Christiansâ.
What about Judas? Was he chosen to be an apostle, so he was a Christian - was he saved?
How do you know what they thought and what was in their hearts? Are you God?
I know it is possible to be terribly mistaken, hence the very severe warnings from both the Lord and Paul, and Paul even says âtest yourselvesâ in multiple places. There were âmere professorsâ even in the early church.
Perseverance is a birthday present when you are newly born again. Is being born reversible?
Klax
(The only thing that matters is faith expressed in love.)
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My declaration that there are no conditioned reflexes in Heaven is hyperbole, but has to be true. Genetically coded, evolved pre-wiring and experience played out on that makes us what we are, even with our A-(is for Access)-Consciousness (we can think about our thinking), is what we begin with in Heaven, the seed of consciousness within our glorified brains. It will all be deconstructed and reconstructed in the ultimate therapy. It all has to die and be reborn. We will all move on from what we are. In the gutter. The sanest and best of us are randomly, helplessly privileged above the unhelpably broken, sick, ignorant, depraved of us. All in the same gutter.
Where and when does the Kingdom of Heaven start?
Christianity, the way, the other centred situation ethics of Jesus, was the start. How are we doing? In that narrow way? How effectively have we entered in to that way of life? Iâm not interested in the impossibility of failing in the transcendent, but in how I can fail better in my tiny little broken life now.
The transcendent will look after itself thanks be to the ĎÎŻĎĎÎšĎ Î§ĎΚĎĎÎż - pistis Christou - the faithfulness of Christ. Not our feeble faith in that.
Hello, Iâm not @Edgar but I will chime in if you donât mind. Welcome to the world of hidden or unspoken conditions that are all over the Bible.
For instance, remember the story of Jonah? He was told by God to preach that Nineveh will be destroyed in 40 days. There were no conditions stated. However, Jonah fled from preaching because, as says later, he knew that Nineveh will be spared if they repent.
Look at another set of passages:
First, the promise to Phinehas:
Numbers 25: 10 The Lord said to Moses, 11 âPhinehas son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron, the priest, has turned my anger away from the Israelites. Since he was as zealous for my honor among them as I am, I did not put an end to them in my zeal. 12 Therefore tell him I am making my covenant of peace with him. 13 He and his descendants will have a covenant of a lasting priesthood, because he was zealous for the honor of his God and made atonement for the Israelites.â
Seems like a clear promise that Phinehasâ family will walk before the Lord for ever (although Hebrew doesnât have âeternalâ words, âlastingâ in NIV has been translated as everlasting by other translations (NKJV for instance). And the condition or this promise was faithfulness of Phinehas!
And yet, what do we find in 1 Sam. 2?
1 Samuel 2: 30 âTherefore the Lord, the God of Israel, declares: âI promised that members of your family would minister before me forever.â But now the Lord declares: âFar be it from me! Those who honor me I will honor, but those who despise me will be disdained.
God clearly says he said one thing but then changes his mind based on behavior of those to whom the promise was made initially. This concept destroyed Eternal Security once and for all.
These salvation discussions make me chuckle because it doesnât really matter what the Bible says, what matters is how the text is interpreted. Look at this gem by John Piper:
We are not justified through sanctification. Let me say it again: we are not justified through sanctification. But we are finally saved through sanctification â that is, through a real change in our hearts and minds and lives without which we will not see the Lord.
Another point, remember Lukeâs parable of the sower.
Luke 8: 13 Those on the rocky soil are the ones who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and yet these do not have a firm root; they believe for a while, and in a time of temptation they fall away.
So, it is possible to âbelieve for a whileâ according to Jesus. And yet, if the person is born by faith, what happens if they stop believing? Do they die spiritually and become like the unsaved or do they prove they were never born to begin with? Either way, doesnât appear that they will make it to heaven in that condition, according to mainstream Evangelicals.
Jesus is not giving an extended dissertation on soteriology. He is simply saying what the external effect looks like. And it shouldnât be too difficult to understand the distinction between intellectual assent and approval to certain ideas, âbelievingâ them, and the essence of the heartâs desire.
The problem with many translations of Psalm 15:2 is changing the preposition to reflect modern English idiom. It should not be 'from": ââŚand speaks truth IN his heart.â I like the present continuous tense of the YLT (it is not just a one time thing, but a state of being):
We are a particularly gullible species and extremely capable of being deceived and deceiving ourselves. Recent events in the U.S. demonstrate that nicely, belief in political lies and investment in conspiracism.
My adoption is irrevocable, but I am clueless when it was âofficialâ. Somewhere in my youth*, but I became more aware of it and sure of it during my senior year in high school and following.