I was just noticing this morning how much some people love their sleep. And this caused me to wonder what is the difference between sleep and non-existence? (I hardly ever remember dreams, and I think remembered dreams count for a very small portion of sleep anyway) So, why is it that people can love their sleep but be horrified by the possibility of their own non-existence. I often thought/wondered the latter might be a form of narcissism and a horror at the idea that the universe could go on without us.
This whole question of the difference between sleep and nonexistence connects to a common baloney spouted by many atheists that religious people are just afraid of death so they have to invent a life after death to feel better. LOL That was always rather laughable to me, since my sentiment was always the complete opposite. Nonexistence seems like such a wonderful/restful thing to me that it always sounded just a little too good to be true ā certainly the precious hope of most who commit suicide. Somehow I have to doubt that it can really be that easy ā and I am more inclined to believe that the one thing we can never escape from is ourselves.
The concept of non-existence is foreign to most people as we have the idea of us being awake and conscious all the time and I often get atheist on this point and it hits them that there is NOTHING AT THE END. Some have the idea of living on for a long time (or the illusion of forever in this life). As you have stated, we as humans who have some form of ego as in the sense of our own self awareness; cannot fathom the idea of the universe going on without us and sometimes thinking that the universe went fine before us (this just might be a me thing with the universe going smooth before I existed lol). And on the thing of atheist saying I fear death and nothing at the end I would tell them that if there is noting at the end then thatās it, poof, Iām done for and I cease to exist. But if there is life after death then that is a great worry for a lot of people if the Biblical view of the end of this life into the next is right.
Makes me wonder if you have considered a less oppositional approach to existence. Perhaps you can incorporate some of the wonderful restfulness of nonexistence into what is left of your existence? We all have buttons that can stir us up but you might see if you can disconnect some of yours, just for your own happiness I mean. I donāt mind your being a bit feisty but if it becomes too unpleasant, maybe someone else can bring that for a while and give you some well earned time off?
I wouldnāt take that for granted. Nothing is worth estrangement from ones true self which I equate with āsoulā. In fact while reading Pagelās memoirs last night I had an epiphany regarding the Christian view of God which has made me rethink my own model, and this might also be of interest to @Realspiritik.
You know in the past Iāve advocated for viewing God as a co-product of consciousness, alongside what we take to be our self. Now Iām thinking God, in the Christian scheme, makes more sense as representing all of consciousness - something that has been around a very long time. I believe Iāve heard it said that āIn the beginning was the word and the word was with God.ā I think that our conscious minds kick in at some point after language use becomes sufficiently complex and symbolic. But we didnāt invent it, rather it gave rise to us - and Iām not at all sure it was intended. That is, Iām not sure that the earlier form of consciousness where language originated had any intention of handing the reigns over to our conscious minds, but it happened. So my new thought is that the new co-product of consciousness isnāt God the father but rather Jesus in the Christian schema (at least as it interfaces with my own). So God sent His son for our salvation in order to lead us back to our roots in Him. I suspect the crucifixion then symbolizes putting us back on our own, only now with the grace of understanding where we come from and to whom we owe our being.
In Pagelās memoir she shares aspects of the gnostic gospels found at Nag Hammedi which in her work as a biblical historian she had a hand in translating. She says the gnostic gospels were secret teachings which many of the authors of the bible would share only with those they felt were mature enough to hear them. In the Gospel of Thomas she shared this on her p.176:
Jesus says: If those who lead you say to you, āThe kingdom is in the sky,ā then the birds will get there first. If they say, āIt is in the sea,ā then the fish will get there first. Rather, the kingdom of God is within you, and outside you. When you come to know yourselves ā¦ you will know that you are the children of God.
Of course I canāt share the whole book which would only be a start in justifying my take on it but I share it with you anyhow for what it may be worth.
20 Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God was coming, he answered them, āThe kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; 21 nor will they say, āLo, here it is!ā or āThere!ā for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.ā
Luke 17:21 Or within you
Donāt need to go to the gospel of Thomas for that one. Though the context here is more about when than where, though the two are a bit connected.
You seem to be changing this a little bit to say āGod is within youā rather than the āthe kingdom of God is within you.ā
Hierarchy is part of the nature of life. The community can become so much more than the individual that it not only takes on a life of its own but is so much more alive (more aware and responsive) that it is not a matter of taking control away but rather having control that simply wasnāt there before. The same goes for the human mind. Its capacity for life, awareness and response is so much greater that it isnāt really taking control but simply outshining what was there before. After all, I think the reality is that the accomplishments of the mind are only possible because the mind rests on top of the so called unconscious mind. We are just beginning to understand just how much stuff is going on under the hood, so to speak.
I remember a lot of dreams. Iāve also been following the research about the brainās activity while we sleep. We think weāre just lying there like a bunch of blobs, but in fact our brains are busily triaging what we learned during the day. New neural connections are forged while others are pruned and discarded. Sometimes this biological process generates dream fragments we donāt remember (and arenāt really supposed to).
Another kind of dream is more emotional and is often remembered. These dreams are more about you talking to yourself about emotions you may be trying to repress or deny. These dreams often donāt make a lot of sense, but you tend to wake up with a distinct feeling (e.g. sadness or guilt) that gives you a clue about the meaning of the dream.
And then thereās the rare but unforgettable God-is-talking-right-to-you dream, which is unforgettable in its clarity and intensity. Iāve had quite a few of these over the years, and I can still recall them in vivid detail.
But dreams and sleep are a part of life. They have nothing to do with non-existence because theyāre an integral part of our human biology and consciousness.
With regard to suicide and non-existence, I think itās probably a good idea not to assume we can understand the inner experience of those who commit suicide ā or those who try. āHopeā is not a word that springs to mind with regard to suicidal ideation. There are many factors that drive a person to give up all hope for their human lives, but it really isnāt something we can generalize about.
I donāt know whether youāll like this observation or not, but my own experience as a cataphatic mystic has led me to be unflinchingly optimistic about everything that happens to us when we die. Yes, itās true that the one thing we can never escape from is ourselves. But because weāre all children of God, and because weāre all forgiven for our human trials and tribulations by our amazing loving Mother Father God, in the end itās not such a bad thing for us to be ourselves.
And as I think about it, I have no problem with it being the kingdom of God which is within you. Fits equally well for me.
Excellent point. No mammal has learned to live together cooperatively in the numbers we do. Language and God (or at least the idea of God, though that caveat is intended more for others than for myself) seem to be key ingredients for the success of our capacity to live together in large numbers.
That is true. It goes to why that capacity has made us so much more influential as a species, and successful at least in terms of our total population. But the real purpose of religion seems to be its capacity to speak to us in stories in a way that can enable us to cope with our subjective isolation by helping us to feel connected to others and to what is inside ourselves.
Personally it sounds terrifying to me, not because the universe continues without me but rather i no longer continue with the universe. I can no longer be apart of whatever the future may hold, i am still trying to find peace in the idea that there might be nothing in the end.
Nothing is nothing to be afraid of, I agree. There are at least two points where nothing may become scary.
Not waking from the sleep takes away all the possibilities of life. Even if life would not be nice at the moment, there is a possibility to experience something much better in the future, or make a difference in the life of others. For example, we may want to support and live with those who are dear to us - children, spouse, close relatives, good friends. We might be crucial to other people that might find peace through our acts.
Even if death would be nothing to fear, dying may be scary. It is stepping into the unknown. What if there is something worse than nothing waiting?
The fear of death is obvious and really east concept to get. We are alive and most of us want to remain alive. None of us know for certain what death will be like and so there is that uncertainty. Many of us have pets, families and friends that we enjoy. We would rather continue to do on enjoying life than for it to end. Some are not worried about that and believe it will be like a rest, an eternal sleep. Their fear is not about themselves as much as whoās going to help the ones they love. We see it all the time. A elderly woman , or man dies and leaves behind their spouse. For a little while maybe others come around and then they are forgotten. When I was doing a lot of volunteer work helping clean up the elderlyās houses and yards I seen this a lot. Was a woman accused of holding onto everything but it turned out she was in her 80s and just lacked the strength to carry out trash bags. No kids or grandkids were around to help. So
When the refrigerator broke, she could not move it, she could not afford to fix it or get another one, and she was moving more and more towards homelessness. She finally ended up in one of those deals where someone cleaned everything up, using volunteers like myself, and spent around $10-15k fixing it up and allowed her to live in it rent free and when she died they took ownership of the place. But I saw this a lot. Saw grandkids living inside their grandparents houses who had passed away and they were living there because they had mental illness or drug addiction issues and there was no power to the house and etc.
So many fear dying knowing they are the one who does all of that work. The poor working class who is still a senior citizen and having to work full time just to keep bills paid. They fear dying knowing the hardships that will cause the living they care for.
I donāt think anyone thinks they will die and fear the universe can continue on without them.
Living with and loving dogs all my life prepares one for mortality. Iām in no hurry to quit the stage; itās been great but the curtain always comes down in the end. The loss of a good dog cuts deep but more cleanly. They have no fear to share with you and no angst over what more they could have done. But leave huge hole where all that joy and unconditional love used to be. The only solution is to very soon get a new dog, make another relationship and carry on. If your kid or spouse dies the impulse to join them is strong and of course replacement in any form is unimaginable. Living with dogs teaches you that the pain of loss is greater, the greater the relationship. Once you learn that, you welcome the pain and use it to feel the last reverberations of what was lost - ultimately leaving a warmth of gratitude instead of pain when you remember. The necessity of out living dogs gives you time to notice you were half of everyone of those relationships and can still bring that to a new one who will no doubt deserve the opportunity. So dogs allow you to acquire acceptance of the inevitable and resilience in the face of loss. Truly manās best friend.
I see what you did there. Glad you had a way to interpret what I was saying even though they worship a different mammal in your āchurchā. Of course cats expect you to worship them where as a dog really worships you.
@Trippy_Elixir, I canāt say I find the idea of oblivion/obliteration terrifying or desirable. However, Iāve witnessed the demise of a number of people I loved, who were essential parts of the fabric of my life, but whose lives had become their miserable or oblivious burden. Watching Dad struggle with the involuntary terror that accompanied COPD breathlessness and his increasing inability to comprehend it, his quick and unexpected death (probably from COPD-induced suffocation) at times seems like a kindness. Coming up with the theology I have, oblivion IS greatly preferred.
Like you, I find oblivion a jarring thought. It is not what I hope for. Not what I desire. Not what I expect. However, if that is what awaits us, we really will never know. While I find that answer dissatisfying, itās not really terrifying, either.
However it ends, we should make the best use of our lives now; this is our only chance at this one.
What a coincidence I found this on the same day Iāve been consistently pondering over what will happen when I die.
From my conclusions, when it comes down to it, you canāt really prove an afterlife. Sure, thereās stuff like NDEs but some of those (Key: SOME) have natural explanations. And even then, that alone isnāt solid proof. So really, itās just an unanswered question. So then I got myself feeling depressed thinking about just not existing after death, but then I realized I fear more about not living a fulfilling life than truly dying. So now, Iāve decided to just try my best to live a long, healthy, happy life. Yeah, even the happiest of people can get depressed when they think about oblivion and death, so I donāt dwell on it.
On a side note, one thing I REALLY hope to avoid in life is dementia. Dementia is terrifying to me. You could live an entire fulfilling life and yet in the end, you havenāt lived a single day at all. Iād rather die with a brain full of wonderful life experiences and memories than live with no realization of who I am, what I am, where I am, of anything.
Dementia seems to me like a state in-between life and death ā a little bit nothing rather than complete nothingness. I still find it hard to be afraid of nothing even in that case. The transition into death is just a little bit slower with some people, rather than all at once. If anything I find it less frightening since the death all at once is likely to be quite painful.
I believe in life after death, but it is not from a fear of nothingness. But this life after death I believe in is not a part of the space-time continuum. It is not some soul-thingy leaving the body to float away. I think it is entirely a creation of our own choices, because the nature we have chosen for ourself is more the essence of who we are than anything simply given to us.
I like the idea of eternal life consisting of an eternal relationship with an infinite God, where there is no end to what God has to give and not end to what we can receive from Him. Of course that is better than nothingness. Frankly it is my faith that any life is better than nothingness ā only because my faith is where there is life there is learning and becoming more. Orā¦ at least the opportunity is there. We do tend to have some bad habits that get in the way ā self-destructive habits that tear us down rather than build us up.
We do have objective evidence about the Christian God that should not be dismissed unthoughtfully. It definitely lends credence if not demands it, and it certainly entails something about about the āhereafterā thatās not woo.
