But complexity in the nature of God isn’t the same as seeing God in three persons. But if you can point me to some Jewish writings I’ll take a look, especially if you have found a non-Christian Jewish person seeing the incarnation in the Hebrew scriptures.
Yes, that would be notable.
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The Jewish Jesus: How Judaism and Christianity Shaped Each Other by Peter Schafer, pu b2012
The Jewish Gospels: The Story of the Jewish Christ by Daniel Boyarin pub 2012
Jesus the Jew by G Vermes, pub 1973 by Collins
The Sage from Galilee by Flusser (pub in Israel)
First of all, “complexity” – which I used earlier – is my word not anyone else’s. It’s just a verbal ‘big plastic bag’ that I stick all sorts of hard-to-explain concepts in so that I can finish the sentence without running out of air! As I said, “trinitas” was a word that got developed later…and none of the above sources suggested three-in-one. They just puzzle on what to make of two-in-one or how things were shaping up in some ancient texts. And none of the above individuals are believers in Jesus as God (so far as I know), although they do not argue one way or the other. At least two go out of their way, on a couple occasions, to compliment Jesus as a teacher and a person.
Instead of “complexity,” we might use the analogy of someone with a camera lens trying to focus on a distant object – or an object that is too near. How to get a clear image of it? How to see exactly what it is in relationship to the rest of the photo? This is not far from what Christians still are doing – how to figure all this out?!
So they are all “focusing,” in their own ways on certain texts …Schafer mentions Revelation, Daniel 7, Ezekiel 1 (all recognizable to many Christians, maybe). On page 35 of his book, Schafer writes about "the co-sovereignty of the Two Augusti [in ancient Rome] – who represent the undivided unity of the Roman Empire…both together and separately …{and notes that this two-in-one of Roman rule] " is also addressed in our midrash. " Later, he says on p 92-93 that “our Son of Man is …someone who looks like God…sits together with his Father,” cites the chapters I mention above and says that .in Revelation…“These are not two thrones next to each other; rather, God and the Son of Man sit together on a single throne, clearly the bisellum that we know from the Roman emperors”
On the next page he defines the Son of Man in Revelation and says he “becomes a second divine power in heaven…” and adds that (long story short) this all grows out of a rabbinic interpretation of Daniel 7:9…on p. 141 he said “there can be little doubt that pre-Christian Judaism developed ideas that helped pave the way to a ‘binitarian’ theology…” He sees more of this in his reading of the NT book Hebrews 1:1-4…and in a rabbi’s exegesis of Is 44:6.
I won’t quote the others. Again, these writers are interesting to read, if only to get a contemporary Jewish perspective on the gospels and the concepts used in them. The word “trinity” is not used because that would, for them, be a Christian concern. They are only puzzled by a “two-in-one” notion that a few of them attempt to explain in ways that make sense within Jewish theology. Boyarin, like Schafer above, also noted the seed of what I call “complex” or “how to focus this camera” thinking as extant during – even before – the time of Jesus.
P. S. I stuck Flusser’s book in there just because I think it is interesting. I do not recall him having any remarks on the particular subject we have begun to discuss. But you will learn something from him!
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Many things about God are unknowable.
“It seems you were advocating “wrestling with scripture” and you hopefully have do so on the case of rape, mass murder, genocide, ethnic cleansing, slavery, misogyny, God appearing petty and primitive and so on throughout the Old Testament.”
What we can know with absolute certainty follows: He is not a God who is guilty of murdering millions of babies, rape, misogyny, deceit, genocide, mass murder and every other conceivable evil.
The U. S. has this unusual habit of allowing the entire world to examine our lives in real time, uncensored regardless the potential outcome. The Russians didn’t dare allow anyone to observe their failed efforts to reach the moon.
thanks Ralphie
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Hey Ray. Welcome aboard.
Well, they were Non-Christian Jews until He changed their minds. Pete stood up and said, “Boys, what you hear and see right now was predicted in your Scriptures.”
Remember?
When the day of Pentecosta came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like a mighty rushing wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw tongues like flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.
5 Now there were dwellingb in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 And when this sound rang out, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking his own language.
7 Astounded and amazed, they asked, “Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? 8 How is it then that each of us hears them in his own native language? 9 Parthians, Medes, and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,c 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome, 11 both Jews and converts to Judaism; Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!”
12 Astounded and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”
13 But others mocked them and said, “They are drunk on new wine!”
Peter Addresses the Crowd
(Psalm 16:1–11; Joel 2:28–32)
14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, lifted up his voice, and addressed the crowd: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and listen carefully to my words. 15 These men are not drunk, as you suppose. It is only the third hour of the day 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17 ‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out My Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on My menservants and maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness,
and the moon to blood,
before the coming of the great and glorious Day of the Lord.
21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord
will be saved.’e
22 Men of Israel, listen to this message: Jesus of Nazareth was a man certified by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs, which God did among you through Him, as you yourselves know. 23 He was delivered up by God’s set plan and foreknowledge, and you, by the hands of the lawless, put Him to death by nailing Him to the cross. 24 But God raised Him from the dead, releasing Him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for Him to be held in its clutches.
25 David says about Him:
‘I sawf the Lord always before me;
because He is at my right hand, I will not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices;
my body also will dwell in hope,
27 because You will not abandon my soul to Hades,
nor will You let Your Holy One see decay.
28 You have made known to me the paths of life;
You will fill me with joy in Your presence.’g
29 Brothers, I can tell you with confidence that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that He would place one of his descendants on his throne.h 31 Foreseeing this, David spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that He was not abandoned to Hades, nor did His body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, to which we are all witnesses.
33 Exalted, then, to the right hand of God, He has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend into heaven, but he himself says:
‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand
35 until I make Your enemies
a footstool for Your feet.” ’i
36 Therefore let all Israel know with certainty that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ!”
Three Thousand Believe
37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and asked Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 This promise belongs to you and your children and to all who are far off—to all whom the Lord our God will call to Himself.”
Book is related to the question and subject discussed as to whether the church should change some teachings to adjust to advanced science. I agree as this is what my book series will be about: God as a Scientist and therefore the scientific nature of the Bible. As I stated in comments, I found the Ark of the Covenant and it came as a result of discovering the code behind the Trinity. Nikolai Tesla I suspected discovered it as why he made a statement that “If you only knew the magnificence of the 3, 6, and 9, then you will have the key to the universe.” I believe God showed me the magnificence of the 3 as why I ended up discovering the Ark . I don’t believe I need to promote it anyhow, as if God showed me the path, then the book will promote itself as it is God’s will. God understands where His children are at and seriously need the evidence of His truth now or we self-destruct. God was a scientist and not a Preacher. So yes, we need to adjust and look more into including the miracles discovered by science to incorporate into our Sunday resuscitations. Stay Blessed.
Thanks, Pale. I await corroboration from other sources as to whether or not the Ark of the Covenant has been found. (I still like Steven Spielberg’s “idea” — from the ending of the first Raiders of the Lost Ark — that the Ark is boxed up and stored in some U.S. government warehouse.) The concept of the Trinity is not mathematical but a relational statement involving personalities. As Francis Collins once said at a conference, God must be one heck of a mathematician. But He evidently has done quite a bit of preaching — see Ten Commandments, Sermon on the Mount and more . Interesting book project though.
There is another reason to say no to this question in the title which is more difficult to explain. Here goes…
I have been to a Science Fiction convention only once and I learned something interesting in the discussion with a panel of authors (Larry Niven, CJ Cherryh, and Marion Zimmer Bradley). I would hear readers asking about how a certain part of their book should be understood/interpreted and I was surprised to see that the authors being vague, reluctant, and even irritated by such questions. I realized the authors didn’t want to nail what they wrote down to singular interpretations because they worked hard in expressing things exactly as they did and they certainly had no interest in replacing what they wrote with one of these interpretations. It became clear that they were perfectly fine with the reader having the freedom to interpret things in different ways. By doing this they could speak and appeal to a larger audience.
Well if human authors would do that then wouldn’t God do something like that even better? And wouldn’t the same essentially apply to Christian theology as well? It is abundantly clear that all the participants in this forum understand the Christian message in vastly different ways, and as frustrating as this may be to many of them, I am not so sure this is a bad thing. The thought occurs to me that the real cause of this frustration may be the smallness of the human mind which tries to nail things down to one right way of looking at things in detail. But another thing I frequently see in physics is that being able to look at thing in many different ways is a very important tool for calculating things.
So my point is essentially that what we have already is doing the work God intended – making us think about these things in many many different ways. The last thing we need is for someone to nail things down in a way that shuts down all this thinking that we really need to do.
But what shall we do as individuals? Try to play the same role and be vague and not nail anything down or should we show by our own example that it is quite possible to nail this stuff down and make sense of it all? Or… maybe we can each choose which of these according to our own inclination? Obviously I very much tend take a nail it down approach, but when needed I will retreat to the importance of freedom, diversity, and tolerance. I have said before than I never had much inclination to restrict myself to objectivity and likewise I see no reason restrict myself to vague answers.
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Good thoughts, Mitchell. I am of the mind that there are “essentials” and “nonessentials”. Some things are what they are ---- like 2+2 =?? and I do not care if you are a Democrat or a Republican or live in the Congo . Same for theology as for math, physics --maybe chemistry too (?). We have (and sometimes forever still will be) been talking about some “essential” points ----which may sometimes need some definition (the nature of God, who was Jesus and why did He come to earth as a human being? plus more) And then other things certainly lend themselves to varying perspectives – like Is there a Rapture? was there an Exodus? or should we do communion weekly? and then there are even more highly interpretive things…And OK you may have said "I disagree with your essentials/non-essentials/highly interpretive…And that is what keeps this blog going!
I had to find my own path as the Church appears to stagnate and confused most times… They still think every child is born in sin even though neither God nor Jesus said it. You will enjoy the fruits of my search and journey when book comes out hopefully by the end of the year. Darwin was really not that far from the truth and is supported by the Biblical record. Seek and you will find. Stay Blessed.
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