Should churches shut?

YES! That is the whole idea behind “flattening the curve.”

You’re also talking about public health, and what you’re saying about it is wrong.

That’s incorrect. It’s inevitable that lots of people will become infected. How many of them die will depend crucially on whether the outbreak is spread out or occurs in a concentrated burst. If too many people get sick at once (and they will), the healthcare system will be overwhelmed and the death rate will be higher than 2%. Something less than 40,000 people in the US die in road accidents each year. This epidemic could easily kill 2 million.

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So you are going to church “in faith” of what? That God will protect you from getting sick? That you aren’t sick yourself? That all the science experts are wrong? What does any of that have to do with Jesus Christ?

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Yes. It’s stupidity that says it won’t, not faith. Did you even look at the article at the beginning of this thread about patient 31 and the church in South Korea? You realize that 1/3 of Europe died in the Black Death and lots of them went to church with lots of faith, right?

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That is a stupid question. You clearly do not understand a word of what I have written. Faith does not ignore reality. And God does not protect the foolish. Perhaps you forgot why Christ refused to jump off a cliff for the Devil?

Richard

Really!

Perhaps I have been preaching the wrong faith for the last 40 years or so.

Richard

In the Roman Catholic world, Sundays and certain other days are considered Holy Days of Obligation–a good Catholic MUST attend mass and receive holy communion if at all possible. So now some Bishops are releasing their parishioners from this obligation.

If your faith preaches that Christians won’t spread viruses, because Jesus, then yes, that is definitely wrong.

And they would not have died without that faith? Perhaps you are still not understanding what practical faith is? Or the difference between ignoring sensible and acceding to the draconian. There is a massive difference between showing concern and hiding in a closet until the coast is clear. What is the teaching of the church about death? And fear? Or does that nt mean anything at all?

We are talking extremes here. Reality usually finds some sort of middle ground. But the church seems to have not found it.

Richard

There is also a massive difference between hiding in the closet and choosing to try not to be a vector for rapid spread of the virus through a population with no immunity.

I live in one of the most dangerous places in the world. It is a state department level 5 no travel zone. I have come to terms with my mortality and am not afraid of dying. I am staying home and avoiding contact with people outside my family as much as possible because that is what all the scientific experts have said is NECESSARY in order to mitigate unprecedented levels of human suffering that we are going to see in coming weeks. You are rejecting expert consensus and wrapping your own willful ignorance up in religious language. Not cool.

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Maybe some of your ideas about the faith need to change. Should Christians buy smoke alarms, wear seat belts, and the like? Would you flee a burning building? Do you eat food that has gone bad?

Remember the temptation of Jesus by the devil in the wilderness?

5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:

“‘He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’"

(The devil is quoting Psalm 91 here)

Jesus answered him with yet another quote from the OT (gasp) , “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"

I get the idea that God frowns on this kind of thing

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No I am saying that if my faith tells me that God wants us to worship on the Sabbath then that is what should happen. The Christian faith does not claim immunity but it does claim that God looks after His flock. I misquoted a psalm… Is that psalm irrelevant?

The church cannot claim one thing and then do the opposite, no matter how “foolish” the uninitiated see it. We are talking intent here. The intent is to worship God not civil disobedience. Daniel?

Easter is the no 1 event in the Christian year. Cancelled!

How much difference do you think it will make? Really!

But the damage it has already done is far greater. Or at least, it will be when people realise what it means. How can I preach that God loves and protects us if we do not trust His inside His own places of worship? Or is that not what faith is?

How can I preach that we have no fear of death… unless it is the corona virus!

How can I preach… at all. If my words are only theory and reality means that they are worthless! The whole point of Christianity is to live by it.

Richard

Why, thank you.

I undertand what you wrote and don’t understand your attitude.

Actually, Christ refused to jump off the Temple (not a cliff) because it would have been putting God to the test.

Do you think that keeping the church open is putting God to the test?

Or is it just trusting Him.

No one is claiming that God will protect us from the virus 24/7 but maybe He might still want us to worship Him? And to show what our faith actually means! (or doesn’t)

Richard

Trusting God for what exactly?

So you are admitting that keeping the church open might very well put your flock at risk? Are you really a pastor? What kind?

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It’s a great time to remind everyone that the church is not about a building, but about people. It’s about gathering, but not necessarily all the time.

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As of two days ago… down the page a ways:

103 dioceses have issued statements lifting the obligation for Catholics to attend Mass

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It means getting infected so you can kill others with the virus, and maybe yourself? It means being willing to overload the medical system so more can die, including doctors and other healthcare workers?

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That is not the issue. Do you spit in your hand and rub it on other people? That is effectively what you are advocating.
 

What is the church? Apparently you need to be reminded that the church is the people, not the building. (Sorry if that is redundant to your post just above, @fmiddel, but only a little. :slightly_smiling_face:)

Have an open-air service, if you must, with congregants well spaced apart from each other, and only if they can get to it by neither exposing themselves nor others with whom they have not already had contact, contact such as those with whom they live.

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Biggest earthquake I ever experienced (5.7 with a couple of 4.5 aftershocks in Salt Lake City) eclipsed the coronavirus in the Utah news today. We are not quite so used to those as people living in California or Japan.

I am not participating in the rush on grocery stores so we can hole up for weeks without contact with anyone. I think that is going overboard. Avoiding crowd and big meeting is what I do normally, though I might be a little more cautious than usual in avoiding others.
My wife and eldest son still go to work for now but my youngest is staying home because the schools closed down. Moving to an online venue is workable for many things though.