Here are some of the issues. I run into this attempt at a theological corner by others often. Though it always falls short.
The Bible is full of things like violence. The Bible is full of some very brutal violence that is on par with any rated R form of entertainment.
The Bible, especially Song of Solomon, is very sexually explicit. It’s just such a erotica that for a long time only older Jewish men could read it. Women and young men could not. The Bible is also littered with weird verses like,
Ezekiel 23:20
The Bible is full of horror. You have dragons, tribe murdering angels, suicidal superman bringing down a building on him, witch of Endor and demons.
4 it’s full of fantasy. Giants , dragons, and of course genesis 1-11.
Also the Bible makes some things very clear. It’s not what goes into the mouth but what comes out of the heart. God makes use of fantasy just as much as reality. So you can watch rated r films, you can watch satire mocking movements, horror and superhero films and so on. Jesus snd the apostles would have grown up with ancient but similar entertainment. They would have seen plays and heard songs of gods like Zeus and talked of Hercules. All without thinking it was literal or something undermining their faith.
Hey Jesus. After Passover you want to go watch a play about how the Roman gods had sex with humans.
Sure! That will be awesome. Hey mom, I’m going to the Roman theater to watch a play about false gods. It has nothing to do with the true god but it’s only entertainment, you think He would be ok with it?
No problem. He’s not self righteous like the pharysees. Have fun.
He probably did. He did hang out with prostitutes after all and seemed to be quite a party boy. Though just like most people nowadays, he probably saw a play that was not centered around sex, but contained stories about it. He did probably read Song of Solomon though that is about sex, or rather sex is used as the metaphor.
You’ll also that my point is further accented by the fact it had to be edited to be cleaner. That’s how exotic some of the
Bible verses get. So I doubt Jesus was caught unaware when hearing a play about it from one of the other religions thst dominated where he lived through its art forms.
Since the carnal mind is an enemy of God, we should not be entertained by what it produces. Whatever a man sows he will reap. Sowing to the flesh brings death but submitting to the spirit brings life eternal.
He came to proclaim the Kingdom of Heaven and call the world to repent from sin and to love God. He didn’t hang out with prostitutes just to have fun, he came to a world filled with sin to teach us about the Kingdom of God, not to hang out with sinning mankind.
Jesus was a man. He did have fun. We really did him having fun. He ate, he drank, and he slept. He even seemed to have cared more about some than others. People are constantly trying to turn him into this kind robot separated from humanity. He developed friendships, he focused on a career. He became a missionary in the last few years of his life. He was sinless by choice. But he was 100% a man.
He drank wine and had fun , all without committing sin, among humanity including prostitutes.
To stick to the subject though we know that Jesus would have most likely been familiar with Song of Songs, we also equally know that he would have been familiar with roman way of life. There is no reason to believe he would have been against horror , fantasy, or that he was baffled by sex or nudity.
So if I watching Mr and Mrs Smith and they have a sex scene I did not sin. Zero sin there. Just like it would have been zero sin for jesus to have watched a play abkut Song of Solomon.
The idea that watching Harry Potter is the same as practicing and supporting witchcraft, or by watching a film that has a sex scene in it is the same as adultery, or by watching a film about Hercules means you are supporting false gods and satan worship and ect… is just silly and it’s not supported by the Bible.
The Bible itself is full of these same kinds of things. It’s no different than reading about David and Bathsheba.
Hopefully no one who reads these posts follows the wicked teaching that allows people to be entertained by watching people fornicating and committing adultery.
Acts 17:28 (NIV2011): ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.[1] As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’[2]
Titus 1:12 (NIV2011): “Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons.”[3]
Jude 9 (NIV2011): But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”[4]
[1] From the Cretan philosopher Epimenides
[2] From the Cilician Stoic philosopher Aratus
[3] Also Epimenides
[4] Reference to the pseudepigraphical text The Apocalypse of Moses
Seems to me that the Apostle were well aware of what their audiences were consuming and in the above examples cite them positively to support their arguments. Paul’s are particularly illuminating as he is quoting ‘pagan’ philosophers.
And these are not four isolated incidents, the New Testament (Including the words of Jesus) are littered with allusions and references to the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Pseuodopigraphia, and Philo. The above are the ones I can remember off the top of my head.
But it seems to me that the New Testament writers had a wider view of what was acceptable reading material and how it could be used in a positive manner. I’ll grant not the same as watching a Roman play, but still illuminating.
Secondly, there is no direct command against consuming ‘secular’* TV shows, books, video games, etc (for obvious reasons). So, the Christian must deploy wise discernment in relation to the conscience. As such, each will land in a slightly different place which brings us back to the principles outlined in Romans 14.
Thirdly, where should the line be drawn? I enjoy reading and writing the Japanese short-form poetry, haiku, which dates back to 17th Century Japan. It was pioneered by Buddhist monks and is (to one degree or another) influenced by Buddhist principles. Is it therefore wrong for a Christian to read haiku? Perhaps, I avoid reading the haiku poets of the past because they were Buddhists and start writing Christian haiku instead. What exactly would Christian haiku look like?
What about music? Many Christians would consider Handel’s Messiah ‘wholesome’ and ‘edifying’.* But what if it were performed by musicians and singers who were not Christians. Would that be ok with you, Cody? In that instance, would you say that the Hallelujah Chorus still glorifies God?
My personal view is that a lot of Christian approaches to music have more to do with the Christian music industries powerful marketing than with biblical principles. Or worse, classist notions of high vs. low culture.
As always, your thoughts welcomed.
*For the record, I can’t stand the words secular, wholesome, and edifying.
Certainly Jesus would have loved Yiddish theater. And many of the Broadway plays. And certainly the great operas based on biblical themes/religious themes.
Fact: The carnal mind is God’s enemy, it is not subject to God and can’t be.
The person who does not have the Spirit of God and follow Him is still in the flesh and is carnal and no good thing is in him. He remains God’s enemy.
Gal 5:19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
These are the things that come out of the carnal man, whether it is in his job, home life or entertainment. An no child of God should be entertained by them. Should I be entertained when I am working and the people around me are using filthy language? Should I be entertained by children being disobedient to their parents? Should I be able to set through scenes of suggested fornication or adultery and other sexual immorality, murder, strife, impurity and debauchery, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, envy, lusts of all kind, speaking of God in a unholy way, coarse joking, vain speech or any other work of the flesh? Should these things entertain me? NO! The works of darkness should be exposed and rebuked. We should have no part in the works of darkness. Even the righteousness of man without God is as useful as a used tampon. “All our works are as filthy rags.” The same character in a show can be kind to his neighbor then have sex with his girlfriend. Many of the worlds heroes are fornicators, lustful, arrogant, self centered people. Their comedy shows are filled with vulgarity, immoral sensuality, disrespect of parents and when they do so called moral things they do not glorify God or Jesus. There is no light in them, only darkness.
Their songs do not bring glory to God. They are vain, useless, man and flesh centered. Does God listen to these and receive entertainment. No! It is because of these things the wrath of God is coming on the unrepentant.
Gal 5:24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.
Eph 5:11 Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret.
Eph 5:14
“Wake up, O sleeper,
rise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you.”
1 Tim 6: 3 If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4 he is conceited and understands nothing.
These words are for all of us. They will lead us in the ways of the Father. For those who are looking to know God more, these are words of life, for those who don’t know Him yet they can help you understand better those that follow Jesus.
Ps 1.1 BLESSED (HAPPY, fortunate, prosperous, and enviable) is the man who walks and lives not in the counsel of the ungodly [following their advice, their plans and purposes], nor stands [submissive and inactive] in the path where sinners walk, nor sits down [to relax and rest] where the scornful [and the mockers] gather. (If we relax and receive entertainment from the carnal ways of this world we will become blind followers of the blind. We will both fall into the ditch and be lost.)
2 But his delight and desire are in the law of the Lord, and on His law (the precepts, the instructions, the teachings of God) he habitually meditates (ponders and studies) by day and by night. [Rom 13:8-10; Gal 3:1; 2 Tim 3:16.] (Our habitual meditation, our thoughts should be on the words and ways of the Father. Carnal entertainment turns the mind and affections back towards the world.)
3 And he shall be like a tree firmly planted [and tended] by the streams of water, ready to bring forth its fruit in its season; its leaf also shall not fade or wither; and everything he does shall prosper [and come to maturity]. [Jer 17:7,8.] ( If we keep our affections and thoughts towards the Father and the Son we will bring forth much fruit for them. If we turn our affections and thought away we become as a dead tree, only fit for the fire.)
4 Not so the wicked [those disobedient and living without God are not so]. But they are like the chaff [worthless, dead, without substance] which the wind drives away.
5 Therefore the wicked [those disobedient and living without God] shall not stand [justified] in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous [those who are upright and in right standing with God]. (If the wicked will not be able to stand before God on the day of judgment than we should not incorporate their ways and thoughts into our hearts and minds.)
6 For the Lord knows and is fully acquainted with the way of the righteous, but the way of the ungodly [those living outside God’s will] shall perish (end in ruin and come to nought). (The Father will reward those that separate themselves from the ways of this world but the unrepentant will be cast into the Lake of Fire.)
AMP Let us cast off those things that will hinder us from walking instep with the Spirit of God and run the race that is set before us. Setting our affections on Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith. God bless all who call on the name of Jesus and look to Him for salvation from sin and the judgement that will assuredly come for those who turn away from Him.
Who of you have come to the knowledge of the dangers of participating in this worlds carnal and fleshly entertainment?
So the tl:dr of this is that you came to preach one perspective and threaten people by proxy.
You basically ignored all counter arguments, spat out some proof texts
Consider GoT; there is violence, sex, and magic
If you are literally entertained by people getting hurt and random actors faking sex; sure there can be a heart issue; however, you are deliberately misrepresenting why humans enjoy art. The exploration of the human character through a medium, creativity, and skill are not bad things.
Consider the following:
1 Cor 5: 9-12
9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders?
As for the false teaching insinuations/charges; I ask you to reconsider. In that you are deliberately being offensive (see food sacrificed to idols discussion) and inserting a strawman of an argument; applying malice to others, and arguing in bad faith without doctrinal certainty in public forum. Just stop.
Not threaten but warn people of the dangers of participating in the worlds ways, thoughts and affections. And extorting them to separate their thoughts and affections from the ways of the flesh.
What you call art, God calls carnal, wicked and sinful. The ungodly like to call their forms of entertainment that include fornication and adultery, blasphemies of God and Jesus, disobedience to parents, all manner of lusts and greed, haughtiness, arrogance, crude jesting and other works of the flesh, ART! But the child of God should not be deceived by that, we should be wise and understand that all the ways of the carnal man are wicked. God even says “the plowing of the wicked is sin”. If there daily labor is sin than all they do is sin. And why is it sin? Because it is not done with faith in, love for, or obedience to the Father. What is not done in trusting reliance on the Father is sin.
Children of God don’t need to immerse themselves in the entertainment of the wicked in the “exploration of the human character” for we have had first hand knowledge of it in our own lives. How long did each of us follow the flesh and its wicked nature before we turned to Jesus, and don’t we daily encounter its temptations? In our daily interaction in this present time aren’t we surrounded with the carnal nature of mankind with those who are still enemies of God? Why should a child of God turn on the TV and watch lust coming out of a man or woman when we can see it all around us daily. Why watch an hour and a half movie where the Father or Jesus are not praise, thanked or glorified, don’t we have enough of that with the faithless that we encounter daily?
Jesus came to this earth filled with wicked enemies of God but for what purpose? People like to say he hung out with whores and sinners to make it look like He was just a human that liked to have a good time. But His purpose was to proclaim repentance and the Kingdom of God. I went to a whore house before but not to just hang out there and talk with the girls, I went there to tell them the good news of forgiveness of sins if they would turn away from sin and trust, love and submit to Jesus as their master (Lord). Does anyone here really think that the Father and Jesus are entertained by the wicked behavior of carnal mankind. Do they laugh at the crude jokes and behavior that flows from them like sewage from a drain pipe. No they don’t. They warn of judgement to come, they call all to repent and love the Father and the Son. Jesus did not die in our place so we could continue to allow carnal, fleshly thoughts and affections to remain in us, He died and rose again to free us from those things.
We don’t have to judge the lost because they already stand under God’s judgement. It is only through repentance and faith that leads to loving obedience that we will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. But if we turn back to the world the Father will take no pleasure in us. How strong a warning and judgement is stated above, we are told not to even eat with someone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral, or greedy, or an idolater and the rest. If that is the case, how can a child of God allow their minds and affections to placed under the influence of carnal entertainment? The writers of the Saturday Night Live show are wicked and follow their father the devil. Out of their hearts flow all manner of evil, which is written into a script, which is then acted out by other ungodly people. You can judge a tree by its fruit and the fruit of that show reveals the tree is corrupt. Should a child of God who has died to this world through the death and resurrection of Jesus pluck and eat the fruit of that tree? God forbid it! God does not allow it. Mark 7:20-“What comes out of a man is what makes him ‘unclean.’ 21 For from within, out of men’s hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and make a man ‘unclean.’” This is what is in the heart of the unbeliever, it’s what filled my heart before I turned to Jesus. Since in Christ I have died to this world and the world to me, how could I go back to it. There is no godliness, righteousness, goodness, love or holiness that comes by placing ourselves in the position to be entertained by the wickedness that pours out of the heart and mind of the wicked.
Jesus died and rose again to save us from the power of sin. Why would God’s children want to cozy up with it as it exudes out of the heart and mind of the wicked?
God bless all who call on the name of Jesus with a pure heart.
Namely it is that which comes out of the heart makes one unclean. Then your argument fails. You claim that participating in art = going back to “being” unclean.
As for the entire cozying up to the wicked, you seem to be entirely reductive of non-Christians or your (our) own fallen state.
You make a relatively historically tired argument that equates art with causing sin then make spurious claims that are non sequitur.
You also include overly literal, New Testament legalistic perspectives.
You say that you are warning but I say that you are dog whistling. You can interact with art and those wicked people via the spirit and discernment and further God’s kingdom. You then humble-brag about about visiting prostitutes with an end not to establish a relationship and do the hard work of being available and actually loving people and instead do your “evangelical duty”.
The church in North America (especially certain denominations) supported slavery, discrimination, multiple wars, the work of the CIA, the war on drugs, the oppression of the poor, women, minorities. Should we not judge this fruit?
The final statement, “God bless all who call on the name of Jesus with a pure heart.” is extremely telling. You are arrogantly poisoning the well.
Again you call wickedness Art. As if the form which wickedness is expressed lessens the affects of it. When i was little the town I lived in had a porn theater, it was called the Art Theater. So since the world calls porn a form of Art does that make it ok to watch?
You don’t know what motives led me to talk with prostitutes. You don’t know what I said. You don’t know the lengths I have gone to in the proclaiming of the Kingdom of God or fulfilling the desires of the Father.
We should not be slothful in calling anyone to repentance and faith in the Father and the Son. Whether they declare they don’t love them or they do. We should be zealous in exhorting all to follow Jesus. If those who claim to love Jesus go back into sin then love should compel us to warn them and also to exhort them unto holiness.
You call an honest blessing an arrogant poisoning of the well. Your judgment is faulty.
The scripture and my own words that have been expressed are pure and true and will be a lamp and a guide in the way of holiness for those who would receive them. No one will be harmed by following this council. But if a person will not receive them, then I will leave them to their own devises.
Your current version of theology conveniently boils down to:
All non-Christians are wicked and worthless and Christians should not interact with them except to directly proselytize them. Also there is literally no truth in them (cannot be truth) or what they can do is entirely evil
Scripture is simple, able to be taken out of context, and applied however you feel as long as its hyperlitaristic
I reject #1: You argue that any act done by a non-christian is wicked and there is no truth in them therefore you cannot receive anything by a non-christian such as meat sacrificed to idols yet Paul literally contradicts you (Romans 13:14-23)
I reject #2: While Scriptures function is defined; nowhere is it mentioned that it is simple and literalistic (1 Cor 2:6-14; 2 Peter 3:15-17). Apparently, Christians like myself are all babes for disagreeing with you.
Without these assumptions, your arguments collapse.
Again you call wickedness Art. As if the form which wickedness is expressed lessens the affects of it. When i was little the town I lived in had a porn theater, it was called the Art Theater. So since the world calls porn a form of Art does that make it ok to watch?
False equivalency and your first premise was not demonstrated
You don’t know what motives led me to talk with prostitutes. You don’t know what I said. You don’t know the lengths I have gone to in the proclaiming of the Kingdom of God or fulfilling the desires of the Father.
This is entirely true. But you dropped this in the context of regulating interactions with sinners to entirely proselytizing so it is on you to clarify those things. Apparently, you had some amazing God-driven experiences and served the the Gospel. Awesome!
The final statement, “God bless all who call on the name of Jesus with a pure heart.” is extremely telling. You are arrogantly poisoning the well.
I looked at the last 100 of your posts. There are several blessings, other things that you call warnings, and a complete rejection of empathy and a willingness to dialogue. You may mean be honest in the blessing but it also serves another function subconsciously or not. Then you equate Scripture with your own words of such interpretations such as:
(If we relax and receive entertainment from the carnal ways of this world we will become blind followers of the blind. We will both fall into the ditch and be lost.)
Which do not follow from that the preceding verse.
Then my eyes were opened to a deeper perspective of your rather large volume of work on this site:
Concerning human origins, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit all agree God made mankind at the beginning of creation and the first male and female were Adam and Eve. Below is their testimony.
You are creating a false dichotomy, a false certainty (everyone jumps off the literalism bandwagon in Genesis; it just depends on when), and implying that any Christian who believes in evolution is a liar.
I apologize for interacting with you. You are my brother in Christ and I believe that you are called in a specific place and for specific time just as I am.
