Exactly. And I believe that throughout the NT letters when the writers refer to “the word of God” they are talking about a similar message to this one in Hebrews that they are going around preaching --what God did and promised in the past through his covenant with the Jews, how Jesus is the fulfillment of it both in his death and resurrection, and the eschatological lordship of Christ that is inaugurated but not yet fully established, but we submit to while we wait for its culmination. In almost all cases the message of the gospel is fully grounded in God’s revelation in the past, even as it looks to the future hope.
Amen. You’ll get no argument from me.
I don’t recall who said it (John Piper is not an unlikely candidate), but the idea was that he would rather have the Bible than to have been a follower during Jesus’ earthly ministry, because now we have a more complete picture.
Richard, the section of your quote that I have highlighted makes good sense to me. (Is it ‘universalism’?). My thought processes are more comfortable in a scientific vein than with theology, and so my analysis of how this “exclusivism” likely arose in early Christianity lies in how the authors of John’s gospel ‘remembered’ one of Jesus’ memorable teachings:
14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
In my estimation, the first quotation, perhaps the most widely cited in the NT, supports the ‘exclusivity’ claim, while the latter can comfortably support ‘universalism’. On this forum, I have maintained the likelihood that the two passages are actually the different ways the two authors remembered the same message that Jesus actually voiced. (No one doubts that God relies on frail humans to spread his word.) No one on this Forum seems to have supported or excoriated my claim. Perhaps only I think it important.
Al Leo
I disagree, Dale, for the reasons evident in my reply to @RichardG.
Wishing you the best.
Al Leo
I find it difficult to imagine how a believer would rather have the Bible than see the Savior in His work.
How wonderful it would be to see Jesus!
Yes(!), especially knowing what we know now through scripture. That changes appreciably what being with him then would be like, if we could. His disciples didn’t get him, and they weren’t dull (not all of the time, anyway ). Most were simple men, but not low IQ, and they were with him pretty much all of the time. It’s not for nothing that Jesus said,
I not sure I see them, so you will have to articulate them a little more clearly to get through my obtuseness. Is this what you are referring to: Reply to RichardG?
Don’t overlook the reasons evident in my reply to @03Cobra, just above.
You left an important aspect out of the Hebrews Gospel message, and that is Jesus Christ is our Great High Priest Who is able to take away our sin completely and forever unlike the Jewish high priests. Hebrews indicates that Jesus Christ is about receiving grace through faith in sacrifice of Christ, rather than the judgement of sin based on our belief in Jesus.
We must put Jesus the Savior first and foremost in our lives, not anything or anyone else, not even the Bible. Otherwise we are in danger of having a works/righteousness belief that seems to have overtaken many evangelicals.
No, I didn’t:
I never unpacked the high priest imagery because I was commenting on Heb 3:7-4:13 which is dealing with the theme of belief vs. unbelief as it relates to God’s promises not whether or not Jesus is our high priest.
I do not disagree with the first part of your proposition, Hebrews does indicate that salvation is about received God’s grace through faith in Jesus’ sacrifice (Hebrews 10:19-22). However, Hebrews also indicates that failing to respond appropriately to God’s promise of salvation through Christ leads to judgement. Consider the following (all from NIV2011):
We must pay the most careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. For since the message spoken through angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will. Heb 2:1-4
See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end. Heb 3:12-14
Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed. Heb 4:1-2
There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his. Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience. For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account. Heb 4:9-13
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned. Heb 6:4-8
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Hebrews 10:26-31
See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven? Hebrews 12:25
So, yes, the author is concerned with exhorting his audience to trust Christ for salvation and to continue in that trust. Yet I also believe that the above is compelling evidence that the author is also concerned with warning his audience of the judgement that will result from failing to trust in Christ.
No one is saying they shouldn’t.
Right. But you do not need to demote the Bible to something less than God’s revelation in order to put Christ first.
The Bible never claims to be, in its entirety, God’s revelation. It includes revelations from God, it never claims it is — as a unit — God’s revelation.
So there is no demotion. The situation is just the opposite. You are promoting the Bible in a way it never promotes itself.
This is an incoherent line of reasoning. The Bible is a collection of documents. It was not written as a unit, so it is not possible that it could claim to be anything as a unit. It is a completely anachronistic expectation that you could find claims in the Bible that apply to the Bible as a whole.
The reasoning for ascribing “God’s word” status to the Bible has been laid out. It is an application of the concept of God’s revelation, a concept which is given in the Bible, by various authors in various contexts. Scripture does indeed promote Scripture as God’s revelation. Accepting the canon as Scripture is a historic Christian affirmation.
I don’t think you are reading it well. There are multiple places in the NT where the word of God is used implying the OT, and as the message of the Gospel (as spoken by men) in the NT.
I don’t think most people here have been saying that it does - and in any case, as Christy points out it would be an incoherent claim if “it” did. It is the traditions and church growing out of those early church centuries that now makes these stronger or weaker varied claims on it.
It is a curious thing that you seem to place much weight on what the bible does or does not say … a very curious habit for somebody so eager to insist to everybody that it is not “the word of God.” It would seem that despite your claims you certainly are treating it as such … I.e. (until you can show me “in the bible” I’ll insist you don’t have a case, etc.) I’m not complaining, mind you. Just pointing out a possible incongruity between behavior and profession.
On the contrary, I have a very high view of scripture, so high that I am unwilling to make claims for it that it does not make for itself.
The idea that the Bible needs people to fabricate claims about it for the book to have credibility shows, in my opinion, a very low view of scripture.
The incongruity is in your imagination. You need to think more about why you find padding the Bible’s resume with false claims acceptable.
Dale, please quote one of those passages.
I suspect you are wrong.
I asked Christy to quote such a passage and she could not. Instead, she referred to a few passages in which God was quoted directly.
There is also this:
Implying, obviously, that “the other scriptures” are a unit, and that Paul’s writings are included.
And which of those individual books claims to be, in their entirety, the Word of God?
None. But why is that relevant?