They might be … in some cases and to some extent. Your challenge is spot on, though … we should be all about bringing healing of every kind to the world, beginning with those around us. If we aren’t then we deserve to be challenged about that just as you are doing.
Well thats not answering.You believe they are or not?And if not why are there not happening today?Thas all im asking
I think healings are happening today. What makes you think they aren’t?
And just because we can readily find examples of people that aren’t healed (even if they’ve been prayed over) doesn’t mean that no healings happen anywhere. Even in Jesus time and in the apostles time, not everybody got healed. Read between the lines and you discover that there were people along with Paul himself on his missionary travels that apparently suffered quite the sicknesses such as made Paul worried at the time -worried enough to send them back home to their worried families! Do you think that individual wouldn’t have been prayed over? I know that the gospels use hyperbolic language sometimes to make it sound like Jesus healed everybody. But any serious reader of all of scriptures can see that there remained many lepers, or the blind and lame; both during and after Jesus’ time on earth. The poor you will always have with you. Nobody, even then, put this fledgling faith forward as some sort of instant, universal panacea to resolve or heal every physical ill that will ever exist. [At least not before the final consummation of all history in the eschaton]. So …if it wasn’t for Jesus and the apostles, why do you expect it to be now?
1 Like
So a successfull surgery is now considered a healing.?Thats some medieval stuff right here.It seems everyone have seen or experienced these happening except from me(and a few dozens).Weird
Sure Jesus didnt heal everyone.He didnt had the time.The apostles from the other hand …
I believe in a God who is spirit, NOT in a God who is magical – a God who created the laws of nature for a reason as a part of His creation of a universe that is real and logically coherent rather than simply a dream which requires no consistency. Magic is frankly derived from our experience of infancy where we simply cry out and beings wiser and more capable respond to our cry to make our discomfort go away. But obviously there is no wiser or more capable beings for God to cry out to, so magic is impossible. Instead everything God accomplishes is according to His own knowledge and capability. God’s omnipotence does not mean that God can do whatever you say by whatever means you dictate, as if He were the invention of child who demands things which are logically incoherent – to have his cake and eat it too.
In your fantasy world, you can change the software so your computer heals blind people with mud, because you are a magical god over your computer who can completely ignore the instruction set by which the computer operates. But while you are day-dreaming, I can get my computer do all kinds of great things by using that instruction set by which it operates.
Why do you think God created the laws of nature as He did? So that He could ignore them in order to be the magical fairy in your dreams? It is so that He could use them to accomplish His purpose in creating the universe.
2 Likes
A law maker that binds reality with laws that he does not follow himself is logically incoherent. I always regarded a law maker that makes a law that expresses his will but then is unable to obey his own will himself as impotent, not omnipotent
2 Likes
looking for better description than “impotent.” How about hypocrite… weak willed… inconsistent… irrational… two-faced… double standard… lacking integrity… duplicitous…
- From Book of Signs:
- In Christian scholarship, the Book of Signs is a name commonly given to the first main section of the Gospel of John from 1:19 to the end of Chapter 12. It follows Hymn to the Word and precedes the Book of Glory. It is named for seven notable events, often called “signs” or “miracles” that it records.
- Changing water into wine at Cana in John 2:1-11 - “the first of the signs”
- Healing the royal official’s son in Capernaum in John 4:46-54
- Healing the paralytic at Bethesda in John 5:1-15
- Feeding the 5000 in John 6:5-14
- Jesus walking on water in John 6:16-24
- Healing the man blind from birth in John 9:1-7
- The raising of Lazarus in John 11:1-45
- Some disagree with this list of seven signs. John Marsh and Stephen Smalley amongst others, have suggested six initial signs (seeing the walking on the water as part of feeding the 5000, rather than a separate sign in itself), and that the seventh sign is the crucifixion of Jesus and the resurrection appearance to Thomas (20:26-29).Anthony T. Selvaggio replaces walking on water with the cleansing of the Temple because John 2:18 includes the word “sign”.
- Personally, I don’t view the “cleansing of the Temple” in the same category as the other events because (a) IMO, it didn’t take place “in the Temple” and (b) it involved bold action but nothing miraculous, even though some view it as a sign. Bottom line: It would seem that the jury is still out on what should be on such a list, although the following may be as close to a complete list as I have ever seen [How Many Miracles Are There In The New Testament]:
- Water made wine in Cana – John 2:1–11
- Son of nobleman healed in Cana – John 4:46–54
- Christ passed unseen through crowd in Nazareth – Luke 4:28–30
- Demoniac in synagogue healed in Capernaum – Mark 1:23–26
- Peter’s mother- inlaw healed in Capernaum – Matthew 8:14–17
- Draught of fishes in lake of Galileo – Luke 5:1–11
- Leper cleansed in Capernaum – Matthew 8:1–4
- Paralytic healed in Capernaum – Matthew 9:1–8
- Impotent man healed in Jerusalem – John 5:1–9
- Withered hand restored in Galilee – Matthew 12:10–13
- Centurion’s servant cured of palsy in Capernaum – Matthew 8:5–13
- Widow’s son raised in Nain – Luke 7:11–17
- Demoniac healed in Galilee – Matthew 12:22–23
- Tempest stilled in lake Galilee – Matthew 8:23–27
- Two demoniac cured in Gadara – Matthew 8:28–34
- Jairus’ daughter raised from dead – Matthew 9:23
- Woman with isse of blood healed – Matthew 9:20–22
- Blind men cured – Matthew 9:27–31
- Dumb spirit cast out in Capernaum – Matthew 9:32–33
- Five thousand supernaturally fed – Matthew 14:15–21
- Walking on the sea – Matthew 14:25–33
- Syro-phonecian daughter healed – Matthew 15:21–28
- Four thousand supernaturally fed – Matthew 15:32–39
- Transfiguration of Christ – Matthew 17:1–6
- Tribute money supernaturally provided -Matthew 17:24–27
- Deaf and dumb man healed – Mark 7:31–37
- Blind man healed – Mark 8:22–26
- Devil cast out of boy -Mark 9:14–29
- Miracles by the seventy – Luke 10:17
- Ten lepers cleansed – Luke 17:11–19
- Jesus passed unseen through crowd in the temple – John 8:59
- Man born blind healed – John 9:1–7
- Lazarus raised from dead – John 11:38–44
- Woman with infirmity cured – Luke 13:11–17
- Man with dropsy cured – Luke 14:1–6
- Two blind men cured in Jericho – Luke 18:35–43
- Fig tree cursed and withered -Mark 11:12–14
- Malchus’ ears healed – Luke 22:50–51
- Second draught of fishes – John 21:1–14
- Resurrection of Christ – Luke 24:6
- Christ’s appearance to Mary Magdalene – Mark 16:9
- Christ’s appearance to other women -Matthew 28:9
- Christ’s appearance to two disciples – Luke 24:15–31
- Christ’s appearance to Peter -1 Corinthians 15:5
- Christ’s appearance to ten apostles (Thomas absent) – John 20:19–24
- Christ’s appearance to eleven apostles (Thomas present) – John 20:126–28
- Christ’s appearance to seven disciples fishing – John 21:1–24
- Christ’s appearance to eleven apostles in Galilee – Matthew 28:16–17
- Christ’s appearance to five hundred brethren – 1 Corinthians 15:6
- Christ’s appearance to James – 1 Corinthians 15:7
- Christ’s appearance to eleven apostles on day of Ascension – Acts 1:2–9
- Outpouring of the Holy Spirit – Acts 2:1–14
- Christ’s appearance to Paul at his conversion – Acts 9:1–5; 1 Corinthians 15:18
- Lame man cured by Peter – Acts 3:6
- Death of Ananias and Sapphira – Acts 5:5, 10
- Many sick people healed by Peter – Acts 5:15
- Apostles freed from prison by angelic intervention – Acts 5:19; 12:7–11
- Stephen’s great miracles – Acts 6:8
- Dying Stephen’s vision of Christ – Acts 7:55–56
- Philip cast out unclean spirit – Acts 8:6–13
- Ananias’ vision – Acts 9:10
- Paul’s sight restored – Acts 9:17–18
- Aeneas healed of palsy – Acts 9:34
- Dorcas restored to life – Acts 9:40
- Cornelius’ vision – Acts 10:3–4, 30–32
- Peter’s vision – Acts 10:9–20
- Agabus’ prophecies – Acts 11:28; 21:11
- Peter released from prison by angelic intervention – Acts 12:7–11
- Elymas blinded – Acts 13:11
- Lame man cured by Paul – Acts 14:10
- Damsel delivered from evil spirit – Acts 14:10
- Paul’s vision on the way to Damascus – Acts 16:9
- Earthquake released Paul and Silas – Acts 16:25–26
- Gift of tongues – Acts 19:6
- Special miracles by Paul – Acts 19:11–12
- Evil spirit overpowered Sceva’s seven sons – Acts 19:13–16
- Eutychus restored to life – Acts 20:10
- Paul unharmed by viper’s bite – Acts 28:5
- Publius’ father healed – Acts 28:8
- John’s vision on Patmos – Revelation 1:9; 22:21
- Innumerable miracles of Christ not recorded but witnessed by the apostles – John 20:30; cf. Acts 10:38–39
- Personally, I don’t view the “cleansing of the Temple” in the same category as the other events because (a) IMO, it didn’t take place “in the Temple” and (b) it involved bold action but nothing miraculous, even though some view it as a sign. Bottom line: It would seem that the jury is still out on what should be on such a list, although the following may be as close to a complete list as I have ever seen [How Many Miracles Are There In The New Testament]:
- In Christian scholarship, the Book of Signs is a name commonly given to the first main section of the Gospel of John from 1:19 to the end of Chapter 12. It follows Hymn to the Word and precedes the Book of Glory. It is named for seven notable events, often called “signs” or “miracles” that it records.
- As for changing water into wine, the precise steps remain uncertain and/or disputed, however, that such an event is conceivable depends on one’s ability to acknowledge “monistic atomism”, according to which the Cosmos consists of stuff that, in its most fundamental form, consists of things in different relationships. “Physical reality” consists of sets of things in their most fundamental form, in different relationships. Change the relationships, change the set’s physical reality.
- As for possession and exorcism, add Malachi Martin’s Hostage to the Devil and M. Scott Peck’s Glimpses of the Devil to your reading list.
1 Like
There are times when I want to agree with you, but very rarely a whole post, and certainly not beyond a one liner. And here not. God didn’t create the objective, prevenient, deterministic laws of nature. He has instantiated them for eternity. He created with them. There is no choice. Not a scientist on this site deals with that fact and that of eternity, despite uniformitarianism, showing the poverty that is empiricism.
1 Like
Where? When? None are happening anywhere where there is a statistical surface to break. So they can only happen in up country Angola? God hides His traces perfectly yet again, the same as He does in YEC, in being the Designer, the Guiding Hand. Or does one need to be given anointed, spiritual, elect eyes to hear? Ears to see?
Hey for once i do agree with you
1 Like
Ever crossed your mind that it created them for us?Without gravity for example weve been floating away.But no you have to spit bs and refuse to answer any of my questions. THe virgin birth would be the first thing tht youll need to reconsider.Unless you dont believe in it and you blashpemously claim that Jesus had a man father.’
So yeah let me go make my water wine .Because that is perfectly explainable.
In your own words
So since you are not sure about yourself why sit there lecturing me?
Careful Nick! That is a real slippery slope. To faith beyond doubt.
Here in the U.S. Now. In Europe too, I’m sure. I’m sure those of you with jaded views won’t see it anywhere though. It goes with the territory. A friendly atheistic relative of mine once quipped to me: “I’ll see it when I believe it.” Coming from him, it was a friendly jab at people of faith. But I think those words may have been more profoundly true than either he, or people of faith would care to admit.
According to an Andy Stanley sermon I just listened to last night, there were only two things that the gospel writers recorded as being amazing to Jesus: how much faith he found (think Roman Centurion), and how little faith he found (think of his own family and home town where he couldn’t do much healing).
1 Like
But we are not some atheists (at least me).Im a christian which i dont see nowhere these healings happening .Where?The gospel doesnt say that the unbelievers saw the miracles too?So it doesnt require faith to see them.Where are they then?
Nor would the Pharisees and Scribes or Jesus’ hometown folks have been atheists. Far from it, in fact! It has nothing to do with your religious tradition (or lack thereof). The point I was making was about your faith. If your faith is in a desire for signs so that you can shore up some compelling empirical evidence to wave in front of skeptics (and yourself among their number), then you might be the target audience for the crowd (a quite non-atheistic crowd I’ll bet!) that Jesus rebuked, saying “I tell you, no sign will be given them except the sign of Jonah”. Jesus just doesn’t seem interested in performing magic shows for people. In fact - that was one of the temptations he pretty dramatically resisted.
Heres a conradiction though.From the one hand Jesus says this and from the other the gospel writer said that the unbelievers too saw his miracles no?
Yep. It isn’t that Jesus did absolutely no miracles. He obviously did quite a few that amazed a lot of people, and even persuaded some to become believers. But not everyone; not by a long shot. They still killed him, after all! I think you are right that a paradox is here to be resolved. Jesus resists the crowds clamoring for signs. And yet the gospel of John has Jesus performing seven very definite “signs” culminating in that grand-daddy of signs, Lazarus; (to say nothing of Jesus himself ‘being three days and nights in the belly of the earth’ before coming back to life). John does write that he recorded these “that we may believe”. So for me to say that Jesus “isn’t about magic show demonstrations” certainly doesn’t tell the whole story. You are right that there are tensions there to be resolved.
[I think part of the resolution would probably have to be about the motivations involved. Jesus’ motivations for miracles and healings seems to have been to compassionately meet a need. Having it viewed as a ‘confirmation’ of his identity and claims seems to have been more of an acceptable side effect that he was willing to let be observed. (“Tell John the Baptist what you have observed, that the prisoners are freed, the blind see”, etc.) ]
1 Like
Well we finally got something to agree on here.But that leads me to two more questions.Where do these healings you stated above or miracles happen and since from my previous example and comment which you agree upon ,no faith is required for miracles why no one but a handfull of christians seeem to aknowledge they exist?
Those are good questions, and I can keep spouting off my opinions. [Indeed I added a bit more opinion about a possible resolution at the end of my post above.]
But what do you think?